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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2007 at 2:54pm

King Davids Psalms 22 - written over 1500 years BC. This is a prophecy of Jesus's crucifiction.

Psalm 22

A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.
For the choir director; upon Aijeleth[a] Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.

    1(A)My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
         (B)Far from my deliverance are the words of my (C)groaning.
    2O my God, I (D)cry by day, but You do not answer;
         And by night, but I have no rest.
    3Yet (E)You are holy,
         O You who are enthroned upon (F)the praises of Israel.
    4In You our fathers (G)trusted;
         They trusted and You (H)delivered them.
    5To You they cried out and were delivered;
         (I)In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
    6But I am a (J)worm and not a man,
         A (K)reproach of men and (L)despised by the people.
    7All who see me (M)sneer at me;
         They [b]separate with the lip, they (N)wag the head, saying,
    8"[c]Commit yourself to the LORD; (O)let Him deliver him;
         Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
    9Yet You are He who (P)brought me forth from the womb;
         You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
    10Upon You I was cast (Q)from birth;
         You have been my God from my mother's womb.
    11(R)Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
         For there is (S)none to help.
    12Many (T)bulls have surrounded me;
         Strong bulls of (U)Bashan have encircled me.
    13They (V)open wide their mouth at me,
         As a ravening and a roaring (W)lion.
    14I am (X)poured out like water,
         And all my (Y)bones are out of joint;
         My (Z)heart is like wax;
         It is melted within me.
    15My (AA)strength is dried up like a potsherd,
         And (AB)my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
         And You (AC)lay me in the dust of death.
    16For (AD)dogs have surrounded me;
         A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
         They (AE)pierced my hands and my feet.
    17I can count all my bones.
         (AF)They look, they stare at me;
    18They (AG)divide my garments among them,
         And for my clothing they cast lots.
    19But You, O LORD, (AH)be not far off;
         O You my help, (AI)hasten to my assistance.
    20Deliver my soul from (AJ)the sword,
         My (AK)only life from the power of the dog.
    21Save me from the (AL)lion's mouth;
         From the horns of the (AM)wild oxen You (AN)answer me.
    22I will (AO)tell of Your name to my brethren;
         In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
    23(AP)You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
         All you descendants of Jacob, (AQ)glorify Him,
         And (AR)stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
    24For He has (AS)not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
         Nor has He (AT)hidden His face from him;
         But (AU)when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
    25From You comes (AV)my praise in the great assembly;
         I shall (AW)pay my vows before those who fear Him.
    26The [d]afflicted will eat and (AX)be satisfied;
         Those who seek Him will (AY)praise the LORD
         Let your (AZ)heart live forever!
    27All the (BA)ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
         And all the (BB)families of the nations will worship before You.
    28For the (BC)kingdom is the LORD'S
         And He (BD)rules over the nations.
    29All the (BE)prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
         All those who (BF)go down to the dust will bow before Him,
         Even he who (BG)cannot keep his soul alive.
    30(BH)Posterity will serve Him;
         It will be told of the Lord to (BI)the coming generation.
    31They will come and (BJ)will declare His righteousness
         To a people (BK)who will be born, that He has performed it.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2007 at 5:52am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Jesus said beware of those who speak in my name, the first person to speak in jesus's name while having never met him  [ie transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ] or known his teachings was paul yet when you look at the bible and christianity today he is the key figure whose teachings are followed even more so than jesus himself.

Had his words been taken out of the bible you would see a different Christianity than the one you have today.

Unlike paul the Prophet muhammad [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] did not speak in the name of Jesus or with his authority he was a prophet in his own right with his own book of revelations, the community he was sent amongst where not Christians so Jesus warning his followers about false prophets after can not apply to him since islam did not primarily spread to Christian areas until after the prophets time.

look also at religion prior to Christianity, all faiths and all prophets had been monotheistic for thousands of years there message of one god had been the same, then some 300 years after the death of christ out of nowhere the doctrine of the trinity is invented [as it is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the bible] and then forced onto the wrold.

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2007 at 10:22am

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.

    Rami,

How am I not following the forum guidelines?

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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2007 at 12:23am
Originally posted by buddyman

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

 

No offense, but this is false...Mohammed is not prophesied in the Torah or Bible...

The Bible by the way is a Greek translation which means many books. Jesus is the only Messiah.

Prophecy
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophecy
"Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:1-2

Fulfillment
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6

Fulfillment
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:11-15

Greetings and welcome. I would say that your contribution is a very cursory approach to asserting church prophecy fulfillment claims. The topic is much deeper and though this kind of post might suffice sunday school pupils, it fails in the arena of discussion with non Christians.

This is from another thread which can be found in the archives of interfaith, it deals with Isaiah 7:14:

Greetings.

I would like to continue with points that I have found which in totality, and by themsleves, represent valid reasons that I have rejected Christianity as a faith, which is far different than rejecting the religion due to personal hatred against the core teachings or many of the wonderful adherents.

I bring attention to a common evidence used by the church to prove their claims about Jesus and the validity of the NT through a prophecy fulfillment.

Claim of Matthew Chapter 1:22-23:

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us."

This verse is in reference to Isaiah 7:14, and a claim that Isaiah gave a prophecy about the birth of a future Messiah who would be born of a virgin centuries before the event would take place, giving validity to the Church and its idea of replacement theology. This verse is commonly read during the Christmas season, and a source for strength in the Christian cause. There are two important points that rest on this claim:

1) The validity of the NT. Given that we are told this is a word of Gd, which gives a historical and accurate account of Jesus. If a mistake exists, then one must question everything else.

2) The validity of the church. The group who founded the church chose the narratives that best served their theological beliefs. If the evidences for these beliefs can be found to be highly suspect, then their theological beliefs loose their supporting evidence and also become suspect.

Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14 specifically. For the purpose of context, I will include all relevant verses in that chapter.

  

Below is a paste of appropriate verses needed for the discussion from the JPS TANACH, which I dislike, but it suffices for now. I will make comments that explain the context of the verse, the setting, and then provide points that show this is not a prophecy, or a dual prophecy, and given the setting and context, has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus or the late second temple. 

Isaiah 7:1-16

 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it.

In 732 BCE, we find the Davidic throne under the threat of war from the two warring kingdoms of the North. The Kingdom of Syria and the Kingdom of Israel are trying to destroy the Kingdom of the South and have laid siege to the city of Jerusalem. King Ahaz is about to loose everything, and it should be mentioned that King Ahaz is not a "man of Gd", which will allow this chapter to make sense.

The threat of the Davidic throne is reinforced below.

7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind.

7:3 Then said the Lord unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field;

7:4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.

7:5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying:

7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel;

7:7 thus saith the Lord GOD: it shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

7:8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people;

7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

These verses further reinforce the position that the context of this verse is about a war, and now Gd reassures that the aggression of the two northern kingdoms will fail. Keep in mind that so far, nothing is given in the context of this chapter that has anything to do with late second temple or Jesus.

7:10 And the Lord spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:

7:11 'Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'

7:12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the Lord.'

7:13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?

7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Ahaz, who is not a great man of Gd, feels intimidated to ask Gd for a sign. Asking for a sign, not a miracle, as the sign will be a symbol of Gd's Words of reassurance about the failure of King Ahaz's enemies. This sign would mark the downfall of the two kingdoms of the north.

If this sign were the virgin birth of Jesus centuries later, then what sign of reassurance would this be to a people that were under siege and ready to be destroyed? In other words, what would King Ahaz, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem care about an event that would happen long after they were dead, how would the virgin birth of Jesus be relevant to a people who are about to be conquered and killed?  

7:15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

7:16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.

This goes on to tell us how the sign will be relevant to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. By the time the child, who is a sign, reaches the age of knowing right from wrong, the two kingdoms will be vanquished and defeated. This came to pass. 

So if this is strictly interpreted as the virgin birth of Jesus, then what relevance does eating curds and honey have to do with Jesus? When did he eat them? What two northern kingdoms were destroyed when Jesus reached puberty?

If this is a "dual prophecy", then what in the verse tells you it is such, and how would the birth of Jesus be unique given that now we have a second virgin birth?

(I do not believe the verse tells us of a virgin birth because the verse tells us that there will be a sign and the point of the sign becomes complete by the time the child reaches a certain age and the two northern kingdoms are destroyed, so whether or not the child was born of a virgin would not have mattered in this scenario)

Peace 

This is extracted from another thread that was in reply to an apologetic link to try and defend the unreasonable belief that Isaiah 7:14 was a prophecy about Jesus.

Keep in mind that 99% of the piece goes on and on and on and on with why "almah" must be strictly interpreted as "virgin". The piece literally rambles with various scenarios and speculation as to why the Hebrew word is "virgin", it is an utterly incoherent manner in which the piece tries to argue from an ad nauseam or repetition or ad infinitum approach. I have yet to meet anyone who has been able to use the piece to form an argument. The key thing to remember is that I am willing, for the sake of argument, to give this point away (for the sake of argument, I am willing to concede that almah is strictly virgin, and then through reductio ad absurdum, we shall see the problematic conclusion). In the end, the point given is a double edged sword that causes more problems for the claim. Also, keep in mind that the piece (the apologetic piece that is not relevant to this thread) only dedicates about 1% to the contextual dilemma which is the point I bring forth.

The Context (of Isaiah 7:14) demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virgin)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

The context:

       Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the Davidic throne.

       Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign:

       A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion:

       According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle (seeking the best, strongest interpretation without twisting it to a preconception), is not the birth but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about and after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, lets say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Lets also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique. OR;

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy that has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methodology that allowed them to rip the point of the story (the destruction of the two warring armies) out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the mentioning of a child born to a virgin separate from the point?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Lets assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

 

 

This is also a piece I have posted some time ago in the interfaith section, it was discussed at some lenghts.

Matthew 2

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him."

14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt,

15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

This is in reference to Herod trying to kill Gd on earth (everyone knows Jesus is Gd according to Christians, including Herod, or I suppose he did not get the memo). His mother takes him to Egypt, and the gospel writer informs us that this was to fulfill a prophecy as told to the Prophet, which is in reference to the Prophet Hosea. If one looks, one will find this reference in chapter 11 verse 1. 

Hosea 11

1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
       and out of Egypt I called my son.

 2 But the more I called Israel, 
   the further they went from me. 
   They sacrificed to the Baals 
   and they burned incense to images.

1) In the actual Hebrew, there is nothing seperating verse 2 from the last part of one. In other words, there is nothing inherent in the grammer or in the meaning of the verse that allows one to seperate the two verses.

2) These two verses have a historical context which is about Israel and its love affair with the cult of Ba'al. If verse one is the opening of a prophecy about Jesus, then one must continue where it states that Jesus and his parents became involved with the cult of Ba'al (astaghfuralla).

3) If this is a dual prophecy, then how does one determine this? Understand, the idea of a dual prophecy is a Christian technique of trying to find Christological relevance in the OT, thereby making the OT a relevant book. If this is a dual prophecy, then what allows one to stop at verse one for the second prophecy meaning about Jesus where the second verse was included with the first verse for the first prophecy (the first prophecy, or actual historical context includes both verses but not for a second, dual meaning)?

These are points that may seem subtle at the surface, but they are far from insignificant. If the foundation for a prophecy claim is based upon erroneous, and questionable methods, and if these prophecy claims are the foundation for the evidences that the church uses to define their faith, then one must put into question the entire church thesis. These basic points remain unexplained by the church with any reasonable explanation or argument that even remotely makes sense. Insha'Allah if time avails, I hope to contribute my list of points which lead me to reject the Christian faith, none of which cut down its core teachings and morals, or many of its outstanding adherents.

 

As far as following the guidlines. A pattern of "spamming", where copy and pasted material make up the greater portion of a person's contributions and discussions, then it becomes a problem.

Here is the relevant guideline rule:

9. Posting several messages at random and not responding to the generated questions or dialogues following the original posts may also be considered as spamming.

That seems to be the glaring violation I can see.

Peace



Edited by Andalus
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2007 at 11:04am

Andalus,

I am actually a Sabbath keeper...no Sunday school for me. Maybe you should study the Book of Daniel...especially the 70 weeks.

I apologize for the spamming...I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

Also, there are more prophecies that were fillfilled by Jesus...not just Isaiah 7:14.....

You mention the Tanach, are you Jewish?

 

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Quote crasss Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2007 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by jdtiger2002

Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand.

The followers of Jesus (pbuh), under the leadership of false prophets, gradually started worshipping Jesus instead of the One God. These verses predict that the followers of Jesus would go astray and abandon the Oneness of God.

Muhammed (pbuh) came back with the message that the One God wants us to worship only Him and not to worship any man or anything else and restored the true religion of Abraham (pbuh).

Muhammed (pbuh) is a true prophet because he restored the truth brought by Abraham (pbuh) who is a true prophet.

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2007 at 7:28pm

Originally posted by buddyman

I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

It's not really.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2007 at 4:26am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

it is when done in the ask questions section rather than the interfaith section which is why i made that reference in my earlier post.

Discussions - Islam for non-Muslims
Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning is allowed but not debate.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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