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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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MOCKBA
 
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 7:49pm

Some of the prophet's words would be forgotten(by the will of Allah) this would be a natural process since they are not preserved in books, somethings that applied for one period of time would not apply anymore for another period and would gradually disapear and words that were not from the prophet would disapear completely. Lies do not last, EVEN if written down, [See truth is what remains and Allah is The Truth, The Everlasting, The Eternal and falsehood is by nature a vanishing thing, these are teachings from The koran and everyone will come to know it is the truth.]

Salaamu'alaikum Community,

You must draw a clearer line between what you consider a "lie" or a hadith. When someone takes a hadith and tries to quote it as far as his memory allows, or explain the meaning without proper reference... then it does run the chance of turning into a lie, in fact it becomes one, once you attribute words to the Prophet (peace be upon him) that he never said.

The very reports that the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) were ordered to burn the scrolls with the ahadeeth comes from the ahadeeth. The warning of the Prophet that Muslims will follow the Jews and the Christians also comes from a narration and not the Qur'aan. Are you conveniently picking some evidences yet rejecting all?

Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri states that the Messenger(S) of Allah said, "You will surely follow the practices of your predecessors span by span and cubit by cubit, so that if they were to enter a lizard's hole you would follow them." We (the companions) asked, "O Messenger of Allah, the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Who else!"   (Agreed)

The authenticity of the Qur'aan is incomparable when studied next to the collection of the Prophetic sayings, however that does not mean that we refute the latter and classify them all as fabricated and completely unreliable. Obviously times change, but noone has asked us to prepare for our driving tests solely on the writings found in the ahadeeth or verses from the Qur'aan.  



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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 12:50am

The reason why i believe these ahadeeth are true is because they are logical in the sense that muslims are human beings like jews and christians so they are likely to make the same mistakes, as for the command to burn the ahadeeth, this seems only logical to me too, since the koran is appliable through all ages and some ahadeeth are not, and writing them down makes it complicated. In respect to the koran, every generation interperts it's verses differently because the world changes through the ages but His words remain true. For instance this verse:surat Arroom(chapter "the romans")30:41 Mischief has become appearant on the land and in the sea because of that which the hands of men have earned, that He may give them a taste of some of their deeds so that they may return. Someone in the time of the prophet, or even 500 years ago might understand something else from this vers then someone now(pollution of the sea and land because of industry "that which the hands of men have earned"), both are right in their respective interpertation even though their interpertation would be different because of the different things being appearant. To try to constrain the koran only to the interpertation of scholars who use the written ahadeeth for it's interpertation is wrong. Allah created us with different faces, bodies, backgrounds and different view points, The koran is guidance and mercy for everyone, He is well aquainted with each and everyone and well aquainted with our hearts, and through His words He guides each however He wishes. He guides whom He wishes and how He wishes.

To him who this following verse concerns, The Peace is upon you.

Verily you warn him who follows the remembrance and fears The Merciful in the unpresent(the unseen): so give him therefore the good news of what is to come, Forgiveness and a generous reward. [Chapter  36 "ya seen" verse 11]



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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

Salam alakum Community,

I mean no disrespect to you, however, your arguments are weak (in my opinion) and go against a science of hadith which is supported by Quran (in the verses quoted and others). Again, I ask that if we are not allowed to interpret the allogorical verses ourselves, then what should we do with them? Should we just "skip over" those parts, or go against Quran itself? I don't see any other option.

Salam

3:7 He it is Who has sent down upon thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (muhkamaat, hukm=law); they are the mother(foundation) of the Book: others are allegorical(mutashabahaat, shabaha=resembles). But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, longing for discord, and longing for its explanation but no one knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe it; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will remember except men of understanding.  

All i can reply to your answer is no we do not just skip it, and no we do not go against the koran by interperting them.

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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 5:55am

Salam alakum to Community and Mockba,

We may be "beating a dead horse" (as they say in America) on this one, however, I just want to make one more quick point.

" The koran is guidance and mercy for everyone, He is well aquainted with each and everyone and well aquainted with our hearts, and through His words He guides each however He wishes. He guides whom He wishes and how He wishes. "

The Quran itself testifies to this, and so no Muslim will disagree with you. This caution against interpretation does not apply to PERSONAL guidance. Every person has the right (and duty) to not only recite the Quran, but to conteplate it's meaning. The Quran is like a beautiful flower, and each time a pedal is pulled back, it reveals another, more delicate one whose fragrance is even more sweet. This is not what we are talking about.

The caution here is against trying to create discord by trying to explain the mutashabahaat according to your own understading. What is also implied is that one should not perform one's own tafsir (interpretation) without reliance on those who are "firmly grounded in knowledge".

Of course, each Ayat of Quran has many levels of meaning, however, this is another subject.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:35pm

Community,

Scholastic opinion and conclusions does not stop you from understanding verses in your own way or relating them to your own environment and situation. 

Nobody is saying that "this verse means this and this because the sheikh 200 years ago had said so". However, as brother Ali Zaki has pointed out, there are some basic and fundamental principles which are important... likewise in a scientific approach.  

Can you give me an example of what you consider an illogical hadith or hadith that is inapplicable to modern times (preferrably from Bukhari or Muslim)? As I mentioned previously, you are conveniently picking some yet rejecting all, even though they have been very much carefully compiled by one person. If we filtered opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking capacity we wouldn't be puting ourselves far from the arrogance and ignorance of Iblis.  



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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

The caution here is against trying to create discord by trying to explain the mutashabahaat according to your own understading. What is also implied is that one should not perform one's own tafsir (interpretation) without reliance on those who are "firmly grounded in knowledge".

Could you give me refference from the koran on that we should not preform our own "tafsir" without reliance on those who are firmly grounded in knowledge? the verse does not say trying to create discord by trying to explain it. Even though the translation from picktall states this. Look at this translation which i find nearer to the orriginal arabic. koran chapter 3:7 He it is Who has sent down upon thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (muhkamaat, hukm=law); they are the mother(foundation) of the Book: others are allegorical(mutashabahaat, shabaha=resembles). But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, longing for discord, and longing for its explanation but no one knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe it; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will remember except men of understanding.

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 8:22pm

You can perform your tafsir but you may also need to be well-qualified to do so. Not every surgical operation can be performed by a general therapist. Why would you want to perform your own tafsir without reliance on scholars especially if they are, as you say, "firmly grounded in knowledge"?

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA

 

Nobody is saying that "this verse means this and this because the sheikh 200 years ago had said so". However, as brother Ali Zaki has pointed out, there are some basic and fundamental principles which are important... likewise in a scientific approach.  Ok i guess you do not hold to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir then or others who explain every verse according to hadith.

Can you give me an example of what you consider an illogical hadith or hadith that is inapplicable to modern times (preferrably from Bukhari or Muslim)? As I mentioned previously, you are conveniently picking some yet rejecting all, even though they have been very much carefully compiled by one person. If we filtered opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking capacity we wouldn't be puting ourselves far from the arrogance and ignorance of Iblis.  

"Whosoever interprets the Qur'an according to his own opinion has made a place for himself in the fire. "

This is a hadith i consider illogical since it goes against what Ali Zaki said about the koran and which you agree with.

 filtering opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking as you stated is reasonable to me, since we will be standing alone before Allah and we will be asked individually about our actions and choices, "he said, she said" are no valid excuses when it concerns the truth, the truth should be recognized and accepted by those it comes to, not because someone says it is the truth but because they recognize it as being the truth. The fear for Allah helps one recognize the truth. It is not correct to accept something just because someone claims it is the truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning but the fear of Allah is a necessity. The fear of Allah makes one just in action and thought. And to reject the truth when it comes, is like the pagans rejecting the prophet when he came with the truth. They failed to recognize the truth, and on top of that they regarded what they had as being superior(this is the arrogance of iblis) to that which the prophet came with(the truth). They did not have fear for Allah so they were destroyed and defeated.

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