Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The believer without a book Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 7 Next >>
Author Message
MOCKBA
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 27 September 2000
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1410
Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 12:21am

Community, do you know why Iblis fell rejected? Because he did not agree... his arrogance blinded his rationality. Because he quesitoned too much... because enflamed with fire he thought that he had attained the ultimate.

Let's not be too eager to re-interpret the Qur'aan and mess around with the methodology of recording of the ahadeeth.

MOCKBA
IP IP Logged
herjihad
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 January 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2473
Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:09am

Bismillah,

Community has brought up the most pivotal hadith, which is recorded as sahih.  Someone else can get the details, but I know I read it in the sahih. 

A companion goes to a leader of the Muslims and quotes the prophet, pbuh.  The leader liked it so much that he told his scribe to write it down.  The companion said:  The prophet Muhammad, pbuh, forbade the writing down of his sayings.

 

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 6:19am

Salam Community,

I am surprised at your statement,

" So i will go to hell according to what the "sunnis" and "shia" agree upon came from the prophet because i interpert the koran according to my opinion? "

I am not saying you are going to hell.(AstafirAllah). I am providing for you a hadith from the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) which is relevent to our discussion. These are the prophets words, not mine. Anyway, Allah is Al-Ghafoor, Al-Rahim (as you already know).

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

TAFSIR (by M.A. Ali )

"None knows its interpretation except Allah and those (who are) firmly rooted in knowledge", renders null and void all attempts made by scholars to discover the true meanings of the mutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are those whom Allah Himself gives the knowledge, as verse 49 of al Ankabut says: But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge. ...The firmly rooted in knowledge are the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, the thoroughly purified ones (Ahzab: 33), who possess the desired purity of heart and soul, essential for receiving and holding the truth in order to use it (Waqi-ah: 77 to 79) to do good to themselves and to others. "

REGARDING THE VALIDITY OF IJTIHAD (The Science of Hadith)

Since we must depend on the words of the Holy Prophet and his purified progeny to fully understand the Holy Quran (and to protect ourselves from going astray), then we need access to these words. The science of Hadith (Ijtihad) has been developed over many centuries as a "means of access" to these words. As you know, there are tens of thousands of hadith that are claimed by their narrators to be the words of the prophet. If we were to accept all hadith without any type of filtering mechanism, then we would be mixing the authentic and forged hadith together. If we simply reject all hadith, then we will not be able to progress in our understading of Quran (which is the foundation of our religion). So where can we go from their, other than Ijtihad?

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
MOCKBA
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 27 September 2000
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1410
Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 6:47am

Assalamu'alaikum,

Brother Ali Zaki,

May i correct you a little. The term Ijtihad which you have frequently used - is not really "science of hadith"...

Ijtihad according to one of its definitions is:

"Exerting the sum total of one's ability attempting to uncover Allah's rulings on issues from their sources (Qur'an, Sunnah, Ijma', etc.). Sometimes divided into complete ijtihad (the ability of one to independently arrive at Allah's rulings in all areas of fiqh) and partial ijtihad (the ability of one to do so only in certain areas of fiqh in which they have exerted such efforts)."

Science of Hadith (Ulum-ul-Hadith) is ideed much more complex than what Community assumes it to be. His argument is rational, the Companions would not have confused Qur'aan with ahadeeth. However, as Islam was quickly spreading to places beyond Mecca and Medina, the new believers could have confused the scrolls of Qur'aanic verses with the ones featuring ahadeeth. Taking into consideration that literate people were not frequently found during those days. Which is one of the main reasons why the ahadeeth were not to be written down in parallel to the verses of the Qur'aan that were being revealed... At a later stage, when Qur'aan was compiled into Mushaf as we have it today, all other duplicate scrolls with selected verses were also odered to be destroyed.

Here is a link to a comprehensive introduction to the Sciences of Hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienc eofhadith/atit.html

Jazzak Allahu Khair.

MOCKBA
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 7:26am

Salam Mockba

I stand corrected. Ijtihad is much more comprehensive than the "science of Hadith" . I agree that using the terms interchangeably may be confusing. Thank you for adding to my knowledge.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Community
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1135
Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA

Community, do you know why Iblis fell rejected? Because he did not agree... his arrogance blinded his rationality. Because he quesitoned too much... because enflamed with fire he thought that he had attained the ultimate.

Let's not be too eager to re-interpret the Qur'aan and mess around with the methodology of recording of the ahadeeth.

Why Iblis got cast out was because he thought himself better then what Allah created out of clay, so the arrogance was that he rejected the truth when it came to him and thought what he had was better then what was given to Adam.

When the jews say that a great rabbi centuries ago said something and that he was a righteous man and that they follow his words because they have to follow their rabbis teachings because they are the vicegerants of Moses, in other words follow their methodology, we muslims think:"what foolishness, they are misguided  how can they know that that rabbi was a righteous man and how can they know that "he" actually said such, just because they say someone said something and just because they claim he was righteous does not mean that he was." Or when the christians say they do a certain thing because the holy spirit came down on a righteous man some hunderds of years ago and he was made to write it down by the holy spirit, and that they do it because it is a command from God, we think:"what? this is wrong what they do, how can they be so gullible into believing the words of others without question?" So why judge christians and jews this way, but when it comes to muslims we do not, are we not human beings just like the jews and christians are human beings? prone to make mistakes and even lie and deceive? Did not the prophet say that this ummah will make the same mistakes as those before us i.e the jews and christians? We forgot who our prophet was :The Unlettered Prophet, He did not write or read but spoke what was sent down upon him, and the believers who heard it believed in it, and recited it to others, He did not object when the koran was written down, because the koran is a book, but when he heard that his words were written down, he ordered them to be burned. Had those who started writing down his words after his death obeyed him, the situation would have been that the koran would remain as a book and in the mind of thousands later millions, also his words that people kept alive by telling them to others would remain. Some of the prophet's words would be forgotten(by the will of Allah) this would be a natural process since they are not preserved in books, somethings that applied for one period of time would not apply anymore for another period and would gradually disapear and words that were not from the prophet would disapear completely. Lies do not last, EVEN if written down, [See truth is what remains and Allah is The Truth, The Everlasting, The Eternal and falsehood is by nature a vanishing thing, these are teachings from The koran and everyone will come to know it is the truth.]

IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:19pm

Salam alakum Community,

I mean no disrespect to you, however, your arguments are weak (in my opinion) and go against a science of hadith which is supported by Quran (in the verses quoted and others). Again, I ask that if we are not allowed to interpret the allogorical verses ourselves, then what should we do with them? Should we just "skip over" those parts, or go against Quran itself? I don't see any other option.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:37pm

One More Thing....

Also, in fact, The Bible and The Talmud are collections of hadith (from previous prophets and others) without any method of authenticaion of their contents. As a result, the Jews and Christians are forced to either accept it all, or reject is all and they come up with all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify why it is "Holy" or "Inspired".

In contrast, the whole purpose of the science of Hadith is to classify hadith based on various criteria so that we can determine (with some degree of certainty) how reliable the hadith is. No Muslim (that I know of) has ever claimed that all of the 10's of thousands of hadith are actually from the Prophet. In fact, noone could since many hadith contradict eachother. However, this does not mean that we do not know, with a high degree of certainty, that some of the hadith that are transmitted through many lines of narration are, in fact, true and reliable.

Of course, the Quran is the ultimate firquon (criteria), which has been protected by Allah (s.w.a.) from error or corruption, therefore, if any hadith contradicts the Holy Quran it is rejected by all Muslims.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 7 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com