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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2005 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect.

B: That's not the truth brother.  The killing and murdering and maiming of others is not something that we need to respect!

 No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it.

B: You're assuming that the Taliban were benign to those outside its borders (however heinous and horrible and murderous, abusive and violent they were to their own people)...I realize earlier that you mentioned 9/11 aside - but that is IMPOSSIBLE - it is part of reality and AQ is part of reality and the harboring of AQ naturally involved the whole world in Afghanistan's internal affairs as AQ had brutally slaughtered hundreds of innocent Africans in Dar al Salaam and Nairobi in '98 and '99..

Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

B: Are you saying they didn't murder people in open stadiums when they've been filmed doing so?  Don't you realize that murderous regimes take charge of countries sometimes - have we not learned from the Germans and the Russians these lessons?  There is no respecting that and why are you bringing up democracy in reference to the Taliban anyhow??  They're just absolutely diametrically opposite from democracy!

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

B: And yet millions voted - what more than 20 million there and more close to 20 million in Iraq...millions are voting...and 25% of Afghanistan's loya jirga, or grand assembly, will be can this not be progress and steps toward freedom and democracy and rule by the people as opposed to warlords...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so.

B: Can't you see that to have democracies rather than these unstable brutal "theocracies" is in itself achieving victory over have people by the 10s of millions voting in the Middle East - having their voices heard, building their countries, having a purpose in their lives besides blowing themselves up into some 'crusader' or worse some innocent person that will be broadcast (maybe and increasingly less likely) across some 'crusaders' TV set is just plain VICTORY in these you disagree that to infuse people groups and nations with purpose is not a successful strategy in the multi-pronged war against terrorism, battle for freedom and war against poverty?

If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making.

B: You say it's temporary - but it need not be some extent it's in the hands of the Afghanis and Iraqis to decide and that is where it should be..

Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so.

As you've pointed out, things are not utterly transformed in one instant in will take time for all areas to improve...but there is hope now and much more involvement and the possibility of much more future involvement...Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...

You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

You are correct - it may well take a very long time for the greatest of changes - complete equity and peace...but that does not mean we cannot all work toward that end together and with the heart of God in mind to that end..



Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2005 at 10:02am

O my dear brother b95000 thanks for your reply though without replacing monocle. There is a difference of understanding when killing is "Murder" and when killing is "Punishment", I wish I didn't have to teach it to my brothers. If the killing is not according to law, it is simply a murder, otherwise its a "punishment". Kindly make a note of it. Therefore your reference to website detailing killings in the staduium etc is just what media made it appear as "Murders" but according to the witnesses present their, it was "Punishment".

Now coming to your understanding of imported democracy when you say

Originally posted by b95000

...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?
Though I don't want to go into the debate of pros and cons of democracy, but suffice is to ask is that the major objective for US forces there?

..Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...
Yes, ofcourse, and their pride is in their own freedom to act and not through the influence of occupation. Our foremost purpose to be there is to go after the terrorists and maintain law and order situation but not to compromise on them. Are we making any substantial progress or simply trying to make substantial presence over there, possibly for ever. On the more, recent news about secret CIA interrogation cells spread all over the world, beside the incidents of jail abuses, is yet another issue of self reflections as a whole nation than teaching others how to vote? Prioritize yourself.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2005 at 5:35pm
Priorities, huh brother?

Who decides when shooting a woman in the head in a Stadium is NOT murder?  Does Sharia speak to such a heinous public killing or give guidelines for how to punish/kill someone?  I would say this should be a priority - since you brought it up and since some hear advocate sharia law for certain national legal systems (which ones I'm not sure since there are no 100% Muslim countries.)

But perhaps the esoteria of sterilized word choices [punishment or murder] regarding shooting a woman in the head in front of a crowd is just simple justice?...when the US does any sort of killing of killers - people scream and yell about illegal and how can you have it both ways - by the way?

Who gets to decide?  I guess, brother, in your view, the 1.3 B (20%) out of 6.5 Billion in the world, get to decide what is moral and not...

The rest be damned and just don't get in the way of the morality police?  And certainly do NOT get caught and do NOT get punished...Wow, with such power over life and death I sure hope the 'morality police' never get corrupt...

[moderator edited]

comparing Islam and shariah law to saddam hussein is not acceptable as well as Insulting the Islamic faith in general.

This is your second warning.

Edited by rami
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Quote FeistyNomad Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2005 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by UmTayyab

I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

And they call me feisty!

Mabrooks on such a passionate post.

Perhaps I should frequent this site more often.


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