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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2005 at 2:30pm

Fact remains that end can't justify the means. Also, whatever someone may call about the government of a country, question would remain open as what authority any outside country has, without the consent of UN,  to invade any other country on the world map. May it be Afghanistan, where no UN was involved at all, or be it Iraq, where totally false premise was used to misguide (intentionally or unintentionally) the whole world. Even after the false premise for Iraq now so open, arrogantly overstaying on that land, can only be viewed as law of Jungle where aggressors are considered to have law of "might is right".

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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:48pm

You know, it has just this minute occured to me that if the US had let Russia overrun Afghanistan unhindered, without inventing and training the Taliban, etc, Afghanistan might _just_ be free of the influence of both Russia AND the US because of the fall of Communism in 1989-90.

Just like all those other former Soviet States! Sure, they might be poor, but I wonder what curcumstances would be like today?

Can the locals organise an Orange Revolution (ie: From WITHIN!) for Afghanistan, do you think?

Kim...

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2005 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by kim!

You know, it has just this minute occured to me that if the US had let Russia overrun Afghanistan unhindered, without inventing and training the Taliban, etc, Afghanistan might _just_ be free of the influence of both Russia AND the US because of the fall of Communism in 1989-90.

Just like all those other former Soviet States! Sure, they might be poor, but I wonder what curcumstances would be like today?

Can the locals organise an Orange Revolution (ie: From WITHIN!) for Afghanistan, do you think?

Kim...



12 1/2 million voters isn't enough for you?  You want more people to die?  How perverse is that?  These people have been at war for 30 years but you want some more, hey?
Bruce
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 9:32am

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2005 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle, then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...



Edited by b95000
Bruce
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2005 at 10:10am
Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords. The question remains what the allied forces doing to stop this cultivation. Now they must not have any excuse of ignoring it and not leaving it for others to do it.

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.


Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 

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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2005 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

 


Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

B: You're looking yourself in the mirror as you say this, right?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

B: Nothing much has changed?  Can that possibly be true when 12 MILLION people voted including 4 million women in the first election and who knows, 10 million in the second election - the first elections in 30 years...and yet, you opine, with eyes wide shut, that 'nothing much has changed.'  I see...thanks for proving your case to us..thanks for giving things a slight, little tiny bit of the time that has just passed underneath the warlords feet for things to actually and permanently change...they will change but no thanks to naysayers and do nothings like yourself, with all due respect.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords.

B: This will change, sometimes more slowly than we all would like, but it will change...slowly but surely and sometimes more quickly.  But it won't change is you demand it to change without acknowledging progress in other areas.  Simply quoting stats of the poppy trade at this stage means nothing other than that the poppy growing is still an issue...it is an issue that all parties are well aware of - as is the issue of warlords...but give things what, a decade, you cannot demand perfection after 3 years...this is unreasonable, no?  And begin to be fair - mention that it is a good thing to have 12 million people involved in the process...won't you?

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.

B: We are talking about subtleties here and you are saying these things are obvious and plain.  The rule of law is much harder to establish than either extreme of legalized terror (Taliban) or anarchy (warlords)...those are easy paths...the subtle path is to establish a rule of law that honors all members of a society and leaves them solutions to their problems that don't include shooting people's brains out..


Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:56pm

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?
 

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect. No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it. Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so. If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making. Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so. You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

 

 



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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