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Message Icon Topic: This is why Palestine will not succeed Post Reply Post New Topic
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crasss
 
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Quote crasss Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2007 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Israfil

I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent.

Everybody educates their children like they want.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2007 at 9:11pm

Originally posted by crasss

Originally posted by Israfil

I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent.

Everybody educates their children like they want.

True,

Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

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crasss
 
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Quote crasss Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2007 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

In order to morally condemn something from an Islamic point of view, you need to derive the fatwa from the recognized teachings, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah.

Why don't you try to refer to the accepted teachings and try to build an argument from there? If your objections can be underpinned in that way, I will accept your moral objections, and I am pretty sure Hamas would too.

In the meanwhile, we are slaves to the One God and His rules only, and absolutely free to do what the One God has not forbidden, and so is Hamas.

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Abeer23
 
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Quote Abeer23 Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 12:12am

Originally posted by crasss

In order to morally condemn something from an Islamic point of view, you need to derive the fatwa from the recognized teachings, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah.


That's a good point brother.  Do you know of anything from the Qur'an and sunnah that advocates such teachings of hate to children?  I don't know of any hadith where the Prophet taught the sahaba to "hate" anyone.  Think about how the people of At-taif treated the Prophet (s.a.w); do you know what his response was?  He made dua for not against them.   

There is a difference between teaching self-defense and teaching hate.   The Jews (some of them) during the time of the Prophet (a.s.w.s) were pretty much the same as some of them are now.  I don't know of any hadith where the Prophet (s) takes Hasan (r.a), Husayn (r.a), or any child on his lap and tells them when they grow up they're going to kill Jews.

Parents (mothers especially) need to focus on teaching their children Islam.  Tarbiyah starts in the home.  Muslim families are losing more children to kufr, or at best ma'siya, then the filisteneeyeen are losing in their civil war.   

Salaam



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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 1:22am

Originally posted by crasss

Originally posted by Israfil

Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

In order to morally condemn something from an Islamic point of view, you need to derive the fatwa from the recognized teachings, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah.

Why don't you try to refer to the accepted teachings and try to build an argument from there? If your objections can be underpinned in that way, I will accept your moral objections, and I am pretty sure Hamas would too.

In the meanwhile, we are slaves to the One God and His rules only, and absolutely free to do what the One God has not forbidden, and so is Hamas.

Crass,

I don't need to argue from an Islamic point of view simply a logical point of view. For me to get into the technicalities of ethical law would be like a Lawyer trying to use legal lingo to prove eating twinkies increases body calories which makes you fat. Simply put, don't eat food that makes you fat! the same can be said about the video of Hamas. If you make songs which glorify hatred then obviously there is something wrong. If you look around the world most children in good environments do not sing songs of weaponry and hatred. Only Hamas does.

Crass, I mean come on its common sense here you don't see anything wrong with a neutral figure such as mickey Mouse being used to coerce children to hate Jews? for a moment let us not even use the pretext of the land being taken away from Arabs and look for a moment. Would you raise your child how to conduct him/herself violently when they come into conflict?

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crasss
 
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Quote crasss Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 2:31am
Originally posted by Israfil

I don't need to argue from an Islamic point of view simply a logical point of view.

The derivation methods for a fatwa are logical and axiomatically reduce back to the Islamic teachings. Further, the fatwa must have sufficient jima (consensus).

Immorality consists, by definition, in a violation of the rules of the One God. Which rule or rules were broken? I don't see how you can qualify the content of the Hamas television program as immoral without a fatwa.

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crasss
 
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Quote crasss Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 5:19am
Originally posted by Israfil

If you look around the world most children in good environments do not sing songs of weaponry and hatred.

I've actually watched a clip from the Hamas television programme. It is the callers who sing these songs, and not the presentators. You're asking to censure the audience. What point is there in doing that?
Originally posted by Israfil

Only Hamas does.

I don't know about that. Every country at war publishes propaganda against the enemy, and rallies the population, including the children, to support the war effort.

I'd be really interested in hearing a fatwa concerning this issue, and to see a law-based derivation of whether this is moral or immoral.

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superme
 
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Quote superme Replybullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Israfil

Originally posted by crasss

Originally posted by Israfil

I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent.

Everybody educates their children like they want.

True,

Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

It is expedient for those with inferiority complex syndrome to stand to side with the stronger parties - and chastising the weaker party. It gives them a short burst of satisfaction as the victor which they failed to achieve by the meanest available means.

It is honourable for us to be slain by the smart foes rather than gaining victory by such kind of assistance.

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