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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 27 May 2007 at 11:39am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 It would have been better if the exact narrations were posted, just a few of them. No need to make a flying reference to a lot of them. It is known that stoning of Muslims was also done in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s.

 

It (the evidence of mass narration) was the point, not that rajm was used. The point was that rajm was an act that was followed and the proof is the nature of the hadiths (mutawatir).

 

 

But the proof is required that it was practiced after the departure of the prophet or after Surah Noor was revealed..

Surah An-Noor does not distinguish between a married adulterer  or a single forinicator, neither does Surah An-noor state that it abrogates the "some other way for them" in 4:15. Furthermore, the same narrative where we find the "some other way" also gives the punishement found in Surah An-noor but for non-married Muslims.

I am repasting the narrative (which has a sound chain).

'Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "WHen the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah (saw), it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger (saw) was relieved of its strain, he said, "Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them [this is in reference to Surah 4:15]. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.""

(recorded by Imam Ahmed 5:317)

Keep in mind that the punishment found in Surah An-noor is mentioned in this hadith.

 

 

We remember a case of the son of Hazrat Umar who fornicated and he was punished with 100 lashes. Even though it may not be all true. But it is said that the son died after about 50 lashes. So Hazrat Umar ordered the rest of the 50 lashes to be hit on his grave.

 

I remember, and this agrees with the hadith I gave you. 

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bullet Posted: 27 May 2007 at 10:44pm

 

 In the case of the son of Hazrat Umar, there is no stoning. So it does not go in your favor. But it shows that lashes were being applied.

Please note it. Now, I would ask you again as my knowledge of Hadith is very limited and I do not have any ready book at hand, please let me know if there is another Hadith from Bukhari or Muslim which states that Married person should get 100 lashes and then stoning to death.

 I will go back and look up all the Hadith that you have presented in your previous posts. Thanks.

I have noted that the above Hadith is given by you from Musnad Ahmed. Let us have some more of them please. Not just one Hadith. Thanks.

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bullet Posted: 27 May 2007 at 11:36pm

 

 I stated some principle that the matters of seriousness such as dealing with life and death cannot be decided only on the basis of Hadith. Proof for them must come from Quran. That is the opinion of the learned Ulema.

Keeping that in the mind, I do not see even a word about stoning an adulterer in the Quran. And it is a matter of life and death. So what I am to do?? The principle that I have stated is not from me. It is from a well known Muslim scholar of Indo/Pakistan. He says that the matters affecting life and death cannot be decided by the Hadith alone. Proof for them must come from the Quran.

I believe that he was right.

So many cases of stoning have been mentioned in the previous posts. I have read them, there is a reference (short) only and a long list. I am interested in knowing some more Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim with exact words please. If there is any Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim stating in the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. That a married fornicator must be put to death by stoning then it will make it all the more easy for to understand this subject.

Those Hadith should be related to the time of the prophet. I know that Rajam was practiced in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But I know thatthe prophet s.a.w.s. used to pray facing Jeroshlem too. There was no clear order for that but he used to do it. Similarly, there was no special order to stone a fornicator to death but he used to do it.

After he was told to face the Qiblah (Ka'abah), he never even one day faced the Jeroshlem for daily prayers. Similarly, after the order of 100 lashes for the adulteres in Suran Noor, we need to know the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. as to what he did in the case of adulteres who were not involved in any other crime.

Also, if it is proved that stoning was in practice during the time of the great Khulafa, then that would be additional proof in favor of stoning. Please search and provide the material.

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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 28 May 2007 at 5:46am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Here is the link to Bukhari, Muslim, Abudawud and Muwatta, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/ just read ahadith under Hudud and inshaAllah it will be enough for you. The reason i am not pasting them here is that they are so many in number that it would take forever so i know it is bit trouble but inshaAllah a bit of trouble for knowledge is ok.

But i am posting the traditions from time of Khulfae rashideen to show that rajm was a punishment after Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam.

Book 38, Number 4385:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

Ibn Abbas said: A lunatic woman who had committed adultery was brought to Umar. He consulted the people and ordered that she should be stoned.

Ali ibn AbuTalib passed by and said: What is the matter with this (woman)? They said: This is a lunatic woman belonging to a certain family. She has committed adultery. Umar has given orders that she should be stoned.

He said: Take her back. He then came to him and said: Commander of the Faithful, do you not know that there are three people whose actions are not recorded: a lunatic till he is restored to reason, a sleeper till he awakes, and a boy till he reaches puberty?

He said: Yes. He then asked: Why is it that this woman is being stoned?

He said: There is nothing. He then said: Let her go. He (Umar) let her go and began to utter: Allah is most great.

Book 38, Number 4443:

Narrated An-Nu'man ibn Bashir:

Habib ibn Salim said: A man called AbdurRahman ibn Hunayn had intercourse with his wife's slave-girl. The matter was brought to an-Nu'man ibn Bashir who was the Governor of Kufah. He said: I shall decide between you in accordance with the decision of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). If she made her lawful for you, I shall flog you one hundred lashes. If she did not make her lawful for you, I shall stone you to death. So they found that she had made her lawful for him. He, therefore, flogged him one hundred lashes.

Abu Dawud

Book 41, Number 41.1.9:

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Sulayman ibn Yasar from Abu Waqid al-Laythi that a man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab while he was in ash-Sham . He mentioned to him that he had found a man with his wife Umar sent Abu Waqid al-Laythi to the wife to question her about that. He came to her while there were women around her and mentioned to her what her husband had mentioned to Umar ibn al-Khattab, and informed her that she would not be punished on his word and began to suggest to her by that, that she should retract. She refused to retract and held firm to confession. Umar gave the order and she was stoned.

Book 41, Number 41.1.11:

Malik related to me that he had heard that Uthman ibn Affan was brought a woman who had given birth after six months and he ordered her to be stoned. Ali ibn Abi Talib said to him, "She does not deserve that. Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, says in His Book, 'Their carrying and weaning is thirty months,' (Sura 46 ayat 15) and he said, 'Mothers suckle their children for two full years for whoever wishes to complete the suckling.' (Sura 2 ayat 233) Pregnancy can then be six months, so she does not deserve to be stoned." Uthman ibn Affan sent for her and found that she had already been stoned.

Malik related to me that he asked Ibn Shihab about someone who committed sodomy. Ibn Shihab said, "He is to be stoned, whether or not he is muhsan."

Muwatta

I have already given you part of Khutbah that Umar ibn alkhattab gave during his caliphate about stoning in one of my previous posts.

Wassalam



Edited by fatima
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bullet Posted: 28 May 2007 at 6:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi angela

Originally posted by Angela

I guess, you see my confusions.  Hadiths gathered from different incidents would lead me to believe that stoning is unislamic.  It goes against repentance, mercy and submission. 

I am sure you know we dont just take this world as our only hope of mercy. We have an overview of both worlds to see what is beneficial for us. As you have read many ahadith about mercy of our Lord and mercy shown by Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam, you must have also read ahadith which mention that a repentant person who face earthly punishment will inshaAllah be admitted into paradise. There are ahadith which mention that if a person has not faced punishment in this world then its upto Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to forgive him or punish him in hereafter. Majority of muslims would go for the option of recieving punishment in this world as it is part of asking for forgiveness as in this hadith,

Book 38, Number 4426:

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian.

Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was stoned to death. He commanded the people (to pray) and they prayed over her.

Thereupon Umar said: Are you praying over her, Apostle of Allah, when she has committed fornication?

He said: By Him in Whose hand my soul is, she has repented to such an extent that if it were divided among the seventy people of Medina, it would have been enough for them all. And what do you find better than the fact that she gave her life.

Aban did not say in his version: Then her clothes were tied to her.

Abu dawud

 

Originally posted by Angela

However, several hadiths prescrib lashing as almost an act of ritual more than a punishment.  Hitting with a Miswak wouldn't hurt....but it could be very embarrassing.

There are only one or two ahadith and that is regarding a person who was so sick that companions told Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam when asked to bring the person that if he is moved all of his stature will collapse, So Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam told them to hit him once with hundered straws. It is not embarrassing, it is mercy and hope that even though the punishment is by name but He will be counted as the ones who have received their punishment in this world.

 

Originally posted by Angela

The Quran says to lock away an unrepentant woman.  How can you lock her away if shes dead???

Those ayaat are Makkan and it was the time when rule was not of islam, when muslims had their own community and rule of law in Medina, the punishmen was Stoning for married and lashes for unmarried.

 

Originally posted by Angela

Hadiths are important from many historical and religious standpoints.  But sometimes they lack an all encompassing view of the situation.

We dont believe that, we believe Prophets alyhimussalaam are made pure to rid them of any mistakes of human nature. Our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam was asked as to why he turned away from a blind person to give more attention to some chiefs. So if a such minute thing was corrected, major thing as stoning could not have just be let by. 

 

Originally posted by Angela

I also know many young girls I counselled at the home for troubled youth.  They were not so much fornicators as victims of the older men who abused them.  These girls were used and pressured.  Instead of being beaten themselves, the men who did this to them should be punished and mercy to the victim.

Islam clearly differentiates between a rape and adultery/fornication. Even if the women cant bring the proof, the medical exam these day could give proof for her. Even in the older days her physical examination was taken as a proof and even if man was set free for lack of evidence against him, there is no punishment for her.

 

Originally posted by Angela

The lesson I got from the back and forth debate of those of you in this discussion is really there is no perfect answer.  A just man would way all the situations and determine what is appropriate.  Perhaps for the woman who was stoned by the Prophet... that was the appropriate punishment, whereas, with another it would be 100 lashes with a wet noodle.

Yeah a God fearing just muslim judge will always follow Holy Qur'an and Sunnah and the examples of early generations. No one here can deny that their practice was stoning for married women/men.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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bullet Posted: 28 May 2007 at 10:10am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 In the case of the son of Hazrat Umar, there is no stoning. So it does not go in your favor. But it shows that lashes were being applied.

The story you are referring to, to the best of my knowledge, was for either for his son being drunk, or forinicating.  Either way, the paunishment was not for adultery. So I am not sure how that does not work in my favor, or how it works in your favor?

 

Please note it. Now, I would ask you again as my knowledge of Hadith is very limited and I do not have any ready book at hand, please let me know if there is another Hadith from Bukhari or Muslim which states that Married person should get 100 lashes and then stoning to death.

 I will go back and look up all the Hadith that you have presented in your previous posts. Thanks.

I have noted that the above Hadith is given by you from Musnad Ahmed. Let us have some more of them please. Not just one Hadith. Thanks.

Sister Fatima as provided seom narrations. I am not sure how many you want pasted? Furthermore, Musnad Ahmed is extremely reliable and "autheticated", and the example provides evidence for my argument.

regards

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bullet Posted: 28 May 2007 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 I stated some principle that the matters of seriousness such as dealing with life and death cannot be decided only on the basis of Hadith. Proof for them must come from Quran. That is the opinion of the learned Ulema.

I am not aware of this "mysterious" principle in the science of usul al fiqh. In fact, my biggest question is that if this "principle" is such a strongly guiding axion of the shairah, why it has remained a mystery to the greatest minds of the past 10 centuries? Rajm has been a known practice of the sunnah and has not been questioned. I would noy question the ulema, but I would question an unknown self proclaimed scholar who asserts an unknown and mysterious axiom that you are now invoking.

And I am not sure which learned ulema you are speaking of sense rajm is agreed upon with a consensus.

 

 

Keeping that in the mind, I do not see even a word about stoning an adulterer in the Quran. And it is a matter of life and death. So what I am to do??

Either the prophet (saw) was lying, or his companions were lying, and the third generation was teaching nonsense, if we follow your line of reasoning.

What I do is follow the most reasonable path that I can find the most "confidence" in: The Quran, Sunnah, ijma, qiyas. 

 

  

 The principle that I have stated is not from me. It is from a well known Muslim scholar of Indo/Pakistan. He says that the matters affecting life and death cannot be decided by the Hadith alone. Proof for them must come from the Quran.

I believe that he was right.

It is unfortunate that this famous and well known scholar did not bless the lives of Imam Nawawi, Imam Al Ghazali, the Sahaba, and the tabi'in, and thier followers, and Imam Abu Hanifa, and Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi, and Imam Ahmed, and Imam Hajar Asqalani, Imam Muslim, Imam Al Bukhari, etc, etc, etc. My question now is why didn't God bless these great men with the knowledge of your sheikh.

It seems you and your sheikh are very blessed.

The Ummah has its share of self made experts who have claims of novelty. Novelty is what it is.

 

So many cases of stoning have been mentioned in the previous posts. I have read them, there is a reference (short) only and a long list. I am interested in knowing some more Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim with exact words please. If there is any Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim stating in the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. That a married fornicator must be put to death by stoning then it will make it all the more eas]y for to understand this subject.

Sister Fatima posted plenty, and there are plenty more that are left to be posted.

 

Those Hadith should be related to the time of the prophet. I know that Rajam was practiced in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But I know thatthe prophet s.a.w.s. used to pray facing Jeroshlem too. There was no clear order for that but he used to do it. Similarly, there was no special order to stone a fornicator to death but he used to do it.

You are mixing apples and oranges. You repeat this comparison, "facing Jerusalem then facing Mecca", with "rajm", and there is nothing that connects these two issues. I am not sure how else to tell you, logically, they are simply not related. I am not sure what notion you have concocted in your mind, but they have nothing in common.

1) Allah commanded the Muslims to face Mecca after commanding them to face Jerusalem for a period of time, and this is not related, not even as far as an analogy, to the issue of rajm.

2) You saying that there was no clear order for the prophet (saw) to do it is simply rubbish. Allah ordered him to do it. That is clear enough.

 

After he was told to face the Qiblah (Ka'abah), he never even one day faced the Jeroshlem for daily prayers. Similarly, after the order of 100 lashes for the adulteres in Suran Noor, we need to know the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. as to what he did in the case of adulteres who were not involved in any other crime.

You say "similarly", but I have yet to find any major attributes that the two occurences have in common? As far as I can see, they have nothing in common as far as the intention of this thread. The kibla was fixed, so what? Why would anyone go against the command of God?

I gave you a hadith that demonstrated knowledge of the 100 lashes for an unmarried guilty person, while demonstrating knowledge of stoning for a married person.

You keep wanting to see "more hadiths", I am not sure what you are looking for.

 

Also, if it is proved that stoning was in practice during the time of the great Khulafa, then that would be additional proof in favor of stoning. Please search and provide the material.

Sister Fatima gave you examples.

What it comes down to is this:

1) The prophet (saw) practiced it.

2) The Sahaba practiced it

3) The Tabi'in practiced it

4) their followers practiced it

If you do not trust this line, then you must specify who we do not trust, who was wrong, and have ample evidence besides speculation to support doubt.

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bullet Posted: 28 May 2007 at 9:39pm

 

Reply to Andalus: 

I cannot comment on all your points. Briefly, sis fatima has provided the material. I am looking into it. that Scholar (even though not my favored person) is a well known Hanafi scholar of Indo Pakistan. perhaps he also believed in the stoning too. I believe he did. i am not hiding anything. But it was his own quoted principle that matters of life and death cannot be left to the Hadith alone. Proof for them must come from the Quran. Yet he believed in the stoning of the adulteres.

 Anyhow, i wrote about the Qiblah. There is no order in the Quran about facing the Jeroshlem. What do you say? But there is order to face Ka'abah. Prophet s.a.w.s. must have been acting on some order or guidance before the verse for change of Qiblah had been revealed. What was that guidance? Where is that guidance.

The order for stoning an adulterer is not in the Quran. The prophet s.a.w.s. was doing it. Why and how?? You do not see any similarity in these two commands but I do.

I admitted that if stoning was in practice after the passing away of the prophet s.a.w.s. then it will make the matter easy to believe. I am looking into the material provided by sis Fatima. I will let you know my views in due course.

I would like to know your remarks about the killing of an apostate too. What is your opinion about that. Because that is also a serious matter involving life and death. Thanks. Keep thinking.

 



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