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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 1:11am

 

 Let us discuss part of the posts now:

 

minuteman wrote:

 

 Some cases were reported and some were confessed by the adulterer himself. The prophet s.a.w.s. turned his face to the otherside as he had not heard anything. But the sinner insisted and confessed again and again. So he was punished.

There are two methods to determine adultery:

1) confession

2) four witnesses

So it is not a mystery that there are examples of rajm being ordered after someone confesses.

Please confirm from Quran that there were two methods to confirm adultery, especially the first one you have mentioned above.

Quote:

But please forget those cases if they happened before the revelation of the Surah Noor (24).

You are going to have to prove your claim.

Rajm was practiced without hesitation by the followers of the Prophet (saw) after the death of the Prophet (saw).

There is no debate about that.

Perhaps you know something more than the first three generations? Including the first three generations of people in Medina?

 No, I do not know anything. You please provide the proof that Rajm was practiced after the prophet s.a.w.s. passed away. I have little knowledge of Hadith. So, you please help in this matter because this thing relates to Hadith only and not Quran. So, you may be having some definite proof of the practice.

I only know that a few persons were stoned in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s.

Quote:

 The prophet was very well acting on the law of the Torah at that time.

This is simply inaccurate. The Prophet (saw) did not act with the dictates of the Torah, he simply allowed Jews to use their own law, in accordance to Allah (swt).

It is accurate as I learnt that the prophet s.a.w.s. did act on the previously revealed law (Of Torah, of course) until a new order came. That was the reason for the facing to Jeroshlem for the daily prayers. Otherwise you have to tell why the prophet s.a.w.s. was facing towards Jeroshlem for prayers for many years. Under what order, under what law??

Quote:

When the order for 100 lashes was revealed in chapter 24, then after that it was a different thing. Let us continue discussing it. Thanks.

There is no dispute that Rajm was practiced as part of the sacred law well into the later years of the Prophet and it continued after him, and it was a non disputed form of punishment by the companions.

If you have special guidance that the companions were not privy to, I would like to see it?

I have answered this part above. I do not have any such knowledge. If I had then why shall I argue with you.  I hope there is no such thing. But please remember that you may provide the proof of mere adulterer being stoned after the life of the prophet s.a.w.s. And that there was no case of rape or killing or murder involved in that.

I do not have any special guidance except what I see from the Quran and Sunnah and Hadith. Thanks.

I will be helpful if you provide that stoning was practiced as a punishment for adultry.... Please do.

We will take up the rest of the discussion later.

 

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peacemaker
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 10:22am

Assalamu Alaikum,

minuteman,

This section is where non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam. Many posters here have already given sound details about the prescribed punishment for adultery, that is rajm ( stoning ); most of the scholars agree on that, and there is a consensus among them on this issue, yet you seem to have an opinion contrary to that. In that case, looking forward, you are welcome to take part in intra faith section by starting a new thread on whatever you would like to discuss, and please avoid derailing this thread any further.

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 Let us discuss part of the posts now:

 

minuteman wrote:

 

 Some cases were reported and some were confessed by the adulterer himself. The prophet s.a.w.s. turned his face to the otherside as he had not heard anything. But the sinner insisted and confessed again and again. So he was punished.

There are two methods to determine adultery:

1) confession

2) four witnesses

So it is not a mystery that there are examples of rajm being ordered after someone confesses.

Please confirm from Quran that there were two methods to confirm adultery, especially the first one you have mentioned above.

You have an assumption buried in your request which must be argued. I am wearing kufs (leather socks), I just made wudu and I wiped over my kufs. If we follow your assumption, then it woudl demand that I show you where in the Quran does it allow me to wipe over my kufs and still have a valid wudu. Or if I take fish from a fishing boat (the fish died on the journey to shore), and then you demand that I show you where in the Quran does it say that the blood of fish is lawful.

Your assumption has limited the scope of prophetic authority, and your assumption has no place in Islam. The conditions for 4 witnesses has been well narrated and established, along with the criteria of a confession.

Quote:

But please forget those cases if they happened before the revelation of the Surah Noor (24).

You are going to have to prove your claim.

Rajm was practiced without hesitation by the followers of the Prophet (saw) after the death of the Prophet (saw).

There is no debate about that.

Perhaps you know something more than the first three generations? Including the first three generations of people in Medina?

 No, I do not know anything. You please provide the proof that Rajm was practiced after the prophet s.a.w.s. passed away. I have little knowledge of Hadith. So, you please help in this matter because this thing relates to Hadith only and not Quran. So, you may be having some definite proof of the practice.

I only know that a few persons were stoned in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s.

What do you want as proof?

 

Quote:

 The prophet was very well acting on the law of the Torah at that time.

This is simply inaccurate. The Prophet (saw) did not act with the dictates of the Torah, he simply allowed Jews to use their own law, in accordance to Allah (swt).

It is accurate as I learnt that the prophet s.a.w.s. did act on the previously revealed law (Of Torah, of course) until a new order came. That was the reason for the facing to Jeroshlem for the daily prayers. Otherwise you have to tell why the prophet s.a.w.s. was facing towards Jeroshlem for prayers for many years. Under what order, under what law??

You are mixing apples and oranges which is terribly obfuscating the thread.

1) You are still clinging to an unargued assumption that deals with prophetic authority. I am thinking that you discussion on rajm is premature, such as putting the cart before the horse. As long as you feel there is a limit on the scope of Prophethood, then these particular matters are too premature to debate about. What is your belief on the scope of Prophethood?

2) Facing Jerusalem is no more acting under the Torah as is rajm or the prohibition of eating pork. Since God is the author of the Torah and the Quran, it will be standard to find some things that are similar and some things that are difference. Given that the claim is that we have a single author for two books, within this context, similarity does not imply equivication. In other words, there is a prohibition on eating prok and marrying our aunts, but this does not mean we are following the Torah.

3) The order to face Jersusalem was from God, and is referred to in the Quran, and explained by the Prophet (saw). There is two revelations, that which is recited (Quran), and that which is not recited and it is knowledge given by God.

Quote:

When the order for 100 lashes was revealed in chapter 24, then after that it was a different thing. Let us continue discussing it. Thanks.

There is no dispute that Rajm was practiced as part of the sacred law well into the later years of the Prophet and it continued after him, and it was a non disputed form of punishment by the companions.

If you have special guidance that the companions were not privy to, I would like to see it?

I have answered this part above. I do not have any such knowledge. If I had then why shall I argue with you.  I hope there is no such thing. But please remember that you may provide the proof of mere adulterer being stoned after the life of the prophet s.a.w.s. And that there was no case of rape or killing or murder involved in that.

I do not have any special guidance except what I see from the Quran and Sunnah and Hadith. Thanks.

I will be helpful if you provide that stoning was practiced as a punishment for adultry.... Please do.

We will take up the rest of the discussion later.

 

What do you want as proof?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 18 May 2007 at 3:00am

 

 Andalus, you are asking:

 What do you want as proof?

 You know very well that the proof is the Quran or the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. or the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Now here in this case, there is nothing in the Quran about stoning an adulterer. So the matter rests with the practice and the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Can you show that the practice was continued after the departure of the prophet s.a.w.s.??

 You are totally mistaken about many things. I believe in the Wahi Jali and Wahi Khafi. What do you want to teach me?? Please do.

 I asked you about providing some proof, some reference etc about the practice of stoning after the departure of our prophet s.a.w.s. that was asked in clear terms. And I had admitted my lack of knowledge in that respect. But still you are asking me, "What do you want?" I feel that you do not have anything to prove the practice of stoning an adulterer otherwise you would have posted it by now...

I believe in the powers and abilities of the prophet s.a.w.s. perhaps more than you, as all the ahle Sunnah do it. Now please come forward with your ideas.



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herjihad
 
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bullet Posted: 19 May 2007 at 6:24am

Bismillah and Salaams,

Jazzak Allah Khayr Brother BMZ for your calm, relevant, correct post.

Here is something, and there is no need to attack or belittle because, yes, I am a Muslimah.  So be nice, Okay?

Some people like to follow exactly like a shadow in the feet of the Hadith and Sunnah and like shadows do not accept reason or logic very well.  Because their entire goal is to shadow.  Let them do so.  You are all free to do that in my humble opinion until it crosses a valid, poignant border which is the actual punishment of beating or nearly beating the life out of someone and of murdering them -- to borrow Brother BMZ's word -- by stoning.

Most good citizens of this planet recognize that both adultery and fornication are bad things to do, yet so many people commit these sins.  What is to be done in reality rather than in circular discussion?  Some people resort to murder as in Sister Angela's example.  Some people beat the life out of others as in some countries.  Some people say, what can we do, and do nothing, thus encouraging a proliferation of amoral, immoral behavior.  What can we do really?

Today we live in a world of fast communication where our public actions are readily seen by others on the other side of our planet.  We need to work together for solutions to these dilemnas.

Here is my proffer.  When I think of the sheikh's answer that Sister Angela posted, I see the inherent Mercy of Allah, SWT, showing itself in forgiveness to that man that fornicated.  I see a little bit of confusion could be drawn from that also.  Yes, he really does need to be checked by his doctor and stay away from marital relations with his dear wife until his health is cleared, which can take years with some diseases.  So he should have to use plastic covers to protect her for a long time.  And then she might think that SHE did something wrong and be hurt, and so this is much more complex of a situation than the sheikh's answer leads one to believe.   It's a big issue that needs furhter discussion among the sheikhs to decide what they really, really think is the best thing to do. 

The American attitude would be to tell her as it is her right to know about the infidelity and possible health consequences of having relations with her husband.  I ascribe to this myself because after all I am American and can't escape my cultural influences as we are all culturally bound. 

Islamically, this is a correct stance, guys really.  However, this idea of not publishing our sins is  a Mercy from Allah, The Most Just, and we need to think of this first and last of all.  Why would Allah, The All-Knowing tell us that it's okay and there's no punishment as long as no one knows of our sin?  This is really, really something to think about.  This should be the focus of Angela's query. 

And then why, with such a merciful solution, would the opposite of that be the public humiliation of flogging nearly to death or death in the case of many of us?  Come on guys!  You can figure this simple thing out.  I have.  It's easy.  It's simple.  It doesn't take a degree from Azhar to get it.

WHY?

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 20 May 2007 at 12:01am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 Andalus, you are asking:

 What do you want as proof?

 You know very well that the proof is the Quran or the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. or the words of the prophet s.a.w.s.

Islam derives its rulings based upon the Quran, Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), Qiyaas (analogy). Though I am aware of this, I am also aware that you have access to ample resources on the net, and hadith abound that show rajm was the practice of the Prophet (saw). So knowing you have access to these narratives, I wanted to know specifically what you wanted as proof. Pasting all of the narratives might be a waste of time.

 

I will make this concise:

1) 'Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "WHen the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah (saw), it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger (saw) was relieved of its strain, he said, "Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them [this is in reference to Surah 4:15]. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.""

(recorded by Imam Ahmed 5:317)

This is also narrated with slightly different wording:

".....take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the unmarried gets a hundred lashes and banishment for a year, while the married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death."

At-Tirmidhi stated this is hasan sahih and can be found in the Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi, Ibn Majah.

So we have a well authenticated statement from a companion about the Prophet (saw) which connects rajm to a verse in the Quran.

2) The topic of rajm is mass transmitted and considered mutawatir (this means so many people have narrated that it becomes nearly impossible for it to have been made up)

The Sahabah radhiallâhu 'anhum who narrate it from Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam are as follows:-
- ‘Umar radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam making Rajm which is reported on the authority of Bukhari.
- ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates that Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam made the blood of an adulterer and stoning him halaal. This is reported on the authority of Nasai and Darimi.
- ‘Ali radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates Rajm being the Sunnah of Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam narrated on the authority of Bukhari and Musnad Ahmad.
- ‘A’ishah radhiallâhu 'anha narrates the law of an adulterer is stoning which is narrated on the authority of Muslim, Abu Dawood and Hakim.
- ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ood radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the permissibility of the blood of an adulterer which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- Abu Umamah ibn Sahl radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the stoning of Ma’iz radhiallâhu 'anhu which is reported by ‘Abdur Razzaq.
- Anas ibnu Malik radhiallâhu 'anhu reports the permissibility of the blood of an adulterer which is reported on the authority of Tabrani as is mentioned in Majma’uz Zawaaid. He also reports Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam, Abu Bakr radhiallâhu 'anhu and ‘Umar radhiallâhu 'anhu stoning a person which is reported by Abu Ya’laa as is mentioned in Majma’ and Matalib- ul-‘Aliyah.
- Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the incident of Ma’iz which is reported by Bukhari. He also narrates the incident of the stoning of the Gamidi lady which is reported by Hakim.. He also reports the stoning of a person which is reported by Abu Dawood.
- ‘Abdullah ibn Abi Aufaa radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam stoning someone which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- Abu Hurairah radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the incident of the stoning of Ma’iz radhiallâhu 'anhu which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim. He also narrates the incident of ‘Aseef which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim. He also reports the stoning of an unnamed person which is reported by Tabrani as is mentioned in Majma’.
- ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the Khutbah of ‘Umar radhiallâhu 'anhu wherein he narrates about Rajm which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
- ‘Ubaadah ibn Samit radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Muslim.
- Jabir ibn Samurah reports the stoning of Ma’iz radhiallâhu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim.
- Abu Sa’eed Khudri radhiallâhu 'anhu reports the incident of Ma’iz radhiallâhu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim.
- ‘Imraan ibnu Husain radhiallâhu 'anhu reports the incident of the stoning of the Ghamidi lady which is reported by Muslim. He also narrates about Rasulullâh sallallâhu alaihi wasallam stoning a person which is reported by Ahmad.
- Buraidah ibnul Husaib radhiallâhu 'anhu reports the incident of Ma’iz radhiallâhu 'anhu which is reported by Muslim. He also reports the stoning of the Gamidi lady which is reported by Muslim.
- Nu’aim ibnu Hazzaal radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the incident of the stoning of Ma’iz which is reported by Abu Dawood.
- Hazzaal Al-Aslami radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the stoning of Ma’iz which is reported by Hakim.
- Nasr ibnu Dahr reports the incident of Ma’iz which is reported by Ahmad and Darimi.
- An unknown Sahabi also reports the incident of Ma’iz which is reported in Majma’uz-Zawaa’id and Musnad Ahmad.
- Abu Barzah radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the incident of Ma’iz which is reported by Ahmad and Tabrani as is mentioned in Majama’uz Zawaaid.
- Al-Lahlaaj radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an unnamed person which is reported by Abu Dawood and Ahmad.
- Zaid ibnu Thabit radhiallâhu 'anhu narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Hakim.
- Ubaiyy ibnu Ka’b narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Baihaqi and Hakim.
- ‘Ajmaa radhiallâhu 'anha narrates the stoning of an adulterer which is reported by Hakim and Tabrani as is mentioned in Talkhees.

3) Sirah Salim bin Dhakwan is an early document that has been dated to 70 - 185 H. The document makes reference to a deviant group who opposed a ruling from the Sunnah (saw) of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

The document contains the passage, "they reject stoning when the Messenger of God did stone a man of Aslam and the sunnah was thereby established..".

Given that well known scholars such as Imam Malik ibn Anas who was of the fourth generation relayed the act of rajm from the people of Medina during his time such that the action was still valid, and with the above document, it would be an extremely weal position to say that rajm was not practiced by the first three generations (Imam Malik narrated from them!).

 

So here I have given three points which provide a strong bases for the acceptance of rajm.

 

 

Now here in this case, there is nothing in the Quran about stoning an adulterer. So the matter rests with the practice and the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. Can you show that the practice was continued after the departure of the prophet s.a.w.s.??

 You are totally mistaken about many things. I believe in the Wahi Jali and Wahi Khafi. What do you want to teach me?? Please do.

 I asked you about providing some proof, some reference etc about the practice of stoning after the departure of our prophet s.a.w.s. that was asked in clear terms. And I had admitted my lack of knowledge in that respect. But still you are asking me, "What do you want?" I feel that you do not have anything to prove the practice of stoning an adulterer otherwise you would have posted it by now...

I believe in the powers and abilities of the prophet s.a.w.s. perhaps more than you, as all the ahle Sunnah do it. Now please come forward with your ideas.

I hope I have provided what you seek.  

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2007 at 3:26am

 

 It would have been better if the exact narrations were posted, just a few of them. No need to make a flying reference to a lot of them. It is known that stoning of Muslims was also done in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But the proof is required that it was practiced after the departure of the prophet or after Surah Noor was revealed..

We remember a case of the son of Hazrat Umar who fornicated and he was punished with 100 lashes. Even though it may not be all true. But it is said that the son died after about 50 lashes. So Hazrat Umar ordered the rest of the 50 lashes to be hit on his grave.

 

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bullet Posted: 25 May 2007 at 4:25pm

I think I have a better view more from the discussion back and forth by the very followers of Islam.

rami,

I understand your arguement that one is not higher than the other.  I guess I still operate from the Mormon belief that Prophets don't always speak the word of God.  They are mortals and fallible, so when in doubt to a Prophet's words, you compare with the words of God.

There's a hadith I like about the Prophet telling a man he cannot beat his wife with anything bigger than a Miswak.... or was it three blades of grass.

I guess, you see my confusions.  Hadiths gathered from different incidents would lead me to believe that stoning is unislamic.  It goes against repentance, mercy and submission.  However, several hadiths prescrib lashing as almost an act of ritual more than a punishment.  Hitting with a Miswak wouldn't hurt....but it could be very embarrassing.

The Quran says to lock away an unrepentant woman.  How can you lock her away if shes dead???

I think in the end...it becomes a matter of prayer and understanding...and risk. 

Its risky to second guess the Lord.  God states many great things to man through all his revelations to all his Prophets.  Of these were 10 very clear statements give to Moses.  I've been pondering these as I've been recovering.  Scholars can only interpret what they have in front of them.  Hadiths are important from many historical and religious standpoints.  But sometimes they lack an all encompassing view of the situation. 

I know of a woman who cheated on her husband and became pregnant while he was in the hospital.  She was flagrant about it. 

I also know many young girls I counselled at the home for troubled youth.  They were not so much fornicators as victims of the older men who abused them.  These girls were used and pressured.  Instead of being beaten themselves, the men who did this to them should be punished and mercy to the victim.

I guess sometimes, its hard to show that someone who by black and white is a criminal is in reality more of a victim.

The lesson I got from the back and forth debate of those of you in this discussion is really there is no perfect answer.  A just man would way all the situations and determine what is appropriate.  Perhaps for the woman who was stoned by the Prophet... that was the appropriate punishment, whereas, with another it would be 100 lashes with a wet noodle.

Thanks.  As always, informative.

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