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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Quran and Hadith(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2007 at 4:56am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Originally posted by bmzsp

My next point: Thus the decrees and commands are clearly ordained. No confusion is left in.

Let us take V14 and V15 of Surah 4 Al-Nisa:

For V14, it is said that "For those women who have been accused of indecency, get 4 witnesses from you and if they witness positively, keep them within the homes till they die or till Allah finds a way out for them." Now some scholars believe that Allah found the way and later the death punishment of stoning was the way, according to scholars of Hadith!! 

And in V15, "If two men,  from you, were found committing indeceny, punish them but if they repent and turn better, leave the both alone."  

How could we say that the woman must be put to death and the men can go scott-free? If we are supposed to learn, read and understand Qur'aan and have been ordered by Allah to deliberate over Qur'aan, why cannot we deliberate on Ahaadith? 

Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

 

 

Wa'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

When you quoted the ayaat above i did not know the explanation, time period or reason behind them but one thing i was sure about was that my Lord is Most Just and there is a good explanation which us, common people cannot see.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Adulteress is Confined in her House; A Command Later Abrogated

(4:15. And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from among you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.) (16. And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful.)

At the begining of Islam, the ruling was that if a woman commits adultery as stipulated by sufficient proof, she was confined to her home, without leave, until she died. Allah said,

[ ]

[ ]

(And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from among you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.) `Some other way' mentioned here is the abrogation of this ruling that came later. Ibn `Abbas said, "The early ruling was confinement, until Allah sent down Surat An-Nur (chapter 24) which abrogated that ruling with the ruling of flogging (for fornication) or stoning to death (for adultery).'' Similar was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Abu Salih, Qatadah, Zayd bin Aslam and Ad-Dahhak, and this is a matter that is agreed upon. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "When the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah , it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain. One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger was relieved of its strain, he said,

ǡ ɻ

(Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.)'' Muslim and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,

ǡ

(Take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the (unmarried) gets a hundred lashes and banishment for one year, while the (married) gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death.) At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih''. Allah said,

[ ]

(And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both.) Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr said that this punishment includes cursing, shaming them and beating them with sandals. This was the ruling until Allah abrogated it with flogging or stoning, as we stated. Mujahid said, "It was revealed about the case of two men who do it.'' As if he was referring to the actions of the people of Lut, and Allah knows best. The collectors of Sunan recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.) Allah said,

[ ]

(And if they repent and do righteous good deeds), by refraining from that evil act, and thereafter their actions become righteous,

[ ]

(leave them alone), do not verbally abuse them after that, since he who truly repents is just like he who has no sin,

[ ]

(Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.) The following is recorded in the Two Sahihs:

ǻ

(When the slave-girl of one of you commits illegal sexual intercouse, let him flog her and not chastise her afterwards. ) because the lashes she receives erase the sin that she has committed.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 09 May 2007 at 5:06am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by minuteman

 

 But please forget those cases if they happened before the revelation of the Surah Noor (24). The prophet was very well acting on the law of the Torah at that time. When the order for 100 lashes was revealed in chapter 24, then after that it was a different thing. Let us continue discussing it. Thanks.

 

Thats what i tried to ask you in my previous post, if such a major law was abrogated there must be a mention of it in islamic law books.

 

Originally posted by minuteman

 

I see that there is no mention of stoning to death of the adulterer in the Quran. Ulema are of the opinion that serious matters about faith (Kufar and Islam) or life and death cannot be decided by a Hadith alone. proof for that should come from the Quran. This being a matter of life and death, it cannot be left to the Hadith alone. In the Jewish law the punishment for adultry is stoning to death. We are not Jews.

 

Alhamdulillah we are muslims brother and those of first three generations and our leaders of that time were more sincere and devout believers than us lot. What i am asking is why does our history tells us that the law was of stoning for adulterer in that time. Did those people who spent their lives with Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam and learnt everything from him somehow missed an abrogation of such a major issue?

Again i have to ask you to please bring view of some known scholars that law of stoning was abrogated. I have searched for ayaah 4:25 to find out the meaning, this is how Ibn kathir translates it, 

4:25. And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess, and Allah has full knowledge about your faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians) and give them their due in a good manner; they should be chaste, not fornicators, nor promiscuous. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit Fahishah, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women. This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

I knew majority of people would not get satisfied with it like me because we are not sure why did he put unmarried women, Maybe because it suits his view? or is there another reason behind it? So i searched further and this is how Maulana Mawdudi explains it

Then if they become guilty of immoral conduct after they have entered into wedlock, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free women (muhsanat) are liable. *46*46.A superficial reading of this verse can lead to the mistaken conclusion, as Khawarij and others have done, that stoning is not the prescribed punishment for adultery. Such people ask: If stoning is the prescribed punishment for extra-marital sexual intercourse, then how is it possible to halve that punishment with regard to slave-girls? Such people have not noted carefully the wording of this verse. In this section (see verses 24-5) the term muhsanat (protected women) is used in two different meanings. First, it is used in the sense of 'married women', that is, those who enjoy the protection of their husbands. Second, it is used in the sense of 'women belonging to families', i.e. those who enjoy the protection of families even though they may not be married. In the verse under discussion, the word muhsanat is used in the latter sense, i.e. in the sense of women who enjoy the protection of families as opposed to slave-girls. At the same time, the word is also used in the first meaning, when slave-girls have acquired the protection accorded by the contract of marriage (fa idha uhsinna), they will be liable to the punishment laid down in this verse if they have unlawful Sexual intercourse.
It is therefore apparent that a free woman enjoys two kinds of protection. One is the protection of her family through which she remains protected even when she is not married. The second is the protection of her husband, which reinforces the protection of the family that she already enjoys. As long as the slave-girl remains a slave, she does not enjoy the protection of the family. However, when she is married she has the protection of her husband - and of her husband alone. This protection is partial. Even after marriage she is neither liberated from the bond of her master nor does she attain the status enjoyed by free women. The punishment prescribed for a married slave-girl is accordingly half the punishment of an unmarried free woman rather than half that of a married free woman.
This also explains that the punishment for unlawful sexual intercourse (zina) laid down in Surah al-Nur 24: 2 refers to the offence committed by unmarried free women alone, and it is in comparison with their punishment that the punishment of married slave women has been laid down as half. As for free married women, they deserve more severe punishment than the unmarried free women (muhsanat) for they violate the double protection. Even though the Qur'an does not specifically mention punishment by stoning it does allude to it in a subtle manner.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 09 May 2007 at 5:27am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Wa'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

Originally posted by Sign*Reader


ASA sister Fatima;

 
Here an obvious reading of the Holy Quraan settles some issue and still we are talking about scholars. Why do we need scholars for such simple stuff ? Not that a judgment is at hand and punishment needs to be applied!
Doesn't it make sense to keep the Quraanic reading as simple as possible and not go looking for the hidden meaning  when it isn't the case.

Brother islamic laws were implemented in best of their shape during time of our first four caliphs. Umar radhiAllah anhu who was given the title of 'Just' had stoning down as a punishment for adultery. I can not even for a second doubt anything about people who were told that they are poeple of paradise in their lifetime.

Second issue of following a scholar, brother Holy Quran tells us in its opening ayaat, Alif Lam Mim, this is the book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for Muttaqin. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
So this book is guidance for people who believe in unseen, alhamdulillah we do. Next thing is, 'are steadfast in prayer', So how do you perform you prayer brother? Did you just open Holy Qur'an and learnt it from there or did you have to look it into sunnah? Who has compiled those ahadith and sunnah books? I dont think you can just pick and choose ahadith from those books and start praying. There are so many different ahadith telling different ways and regulations. Which ones would you know are best to follow? You would have to look at the line of transmission, look at people who are relating them. what would tell you which transmission is sahih and who is a reliable source?

Brother thats where my problem starts, this is a thing in which we have no option but to follow learned people. This is regarding a matter of religion which concerns us alone, so blame of others is not an issue. But as soon as a point comes where we have to take a stand, have to face harsh words of people we back down. Why? because we dont need the scholars and its about time we rely on our own intelligence. No, if i know that most important pillar of my belief system requires me to follow and rely on works of more learned people, i have no shame in admitting it.

wassalam

p.s. I am sorry about carrying on and on but i thing every concern has to be addressed in such a major issue.



Edited by fatima
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 09 May 2007 at 10:17am

 

 In reply to Fatima, who wrote:

 Thats what i tried to ask you in my previous post, if such a major law was abrogated there must be a mention of it in islamic law books.

There is no need of any abrogation when there was no law of stoning. Can you find any word about stoning in the Quran?? No. So, there is no need for any verse which should abrogate some thing which is not there. I had told you that the prophet usefully acted according to oldest rebvealed law (i.e. Torah) untill new orders arrived.

Same is the case of change of Qiblah. Do you find any verse which tells the Prophet and the Muslims to pray facing Jeroshlem?? No. That is why there is no verse in the Quran which says that in future do not face Jeroshlem. There is an order to always face Ka'abah. But there is no word about forbidding to face Jeroshlem.

 I am not aware about how long the stoning was in practice. I do not agree with Maudoodi sahib. You just try to read his commentary of Surah Noor and you will find out that he has made a mess of the whole Muslim practice and the whole law of Shariayah. He has written about 20 pages to explain and to support that 100 lashes are for the unmarried adulterer. Why di dhe do that?? There was no need at all.

He did it becuase he thought there is a secret meaning in the word Zaani. But there is no secret. Allah says in the same verse that these orders are Bayyan. But Maudoodi sahib says, "No." They are not Bayyan (Clear and explicit). That was bad.

 if they commit Fahishah, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women.

Now come to verse of Chapter 4 which you have mentioned about the punishment for the slave girl. In that also maudoodi sahib has taken a wrong line. He has tried to mix up the meaning of "Mukhsanaat", i.e. the plural of "Mukhsinah". Every one knows that Mukhsinah is a lady protected by marriage. But maudoodi sahib thinks (and he is wrong) that any young free girl who is not yet married and living in her fathers house is also a mukhsinah. That is not true.

For Mukhsinah, please see the very first word of the part 5 of Quran. It is in the same verse. A Mukhsinah is always a lady who has a husband and is living with him in his house. As such she is well protected by marriage and she has no need of any extra marital relations. Fatima, please just tell me the meaning of Mukhsinah, thanks.

Any lady who is not married is not called Mukhsinah. I invite other friends to give their opinion too because I do not want to press on to something wrong. So, when a slave girl is married to some one (she is married), her punishment is half of that of the other married (Mukhsinat) ladies.

 

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bullet Posted: 09 May 2007 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Wa'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

Originally posted by Sign*Reader


ASA sister Fatima;

 
Here an obvious reading of the Holy Quraan settles some issue and still we are talking about scholars. Why do we need scholars for such simple stuff ? Not that a judgment is at hand and punishment needs to be applied!
Doesn't it make sense to keep the Quraanic reading as simple as possible and not go looking for the hidden meaning  when it isn't the case.

Brother islamic laws were implemented in best of their shape during time of our first four caliphs. Umar radhiAllah anhu who was given the title of 'Just' had stoning down as a punishment for adultery. I can not even for a second doubt anything about people who were told that they are poeple of paradise in their lifetime.

Second issue of following a scholar, brother Holy Quran tells us in its opening ayaat, Alif Lam Mim, this is the book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for Muttaqin. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
So this book is guidance for people who believe in unseen, alhamdulillah we do. Next thing is, 'are steadfast in prayer', So how do you perform you prayer brother? Did you just open Holy Qur'an and learnt it from there or did you have to look it into sunnah? Who has compiled those ahadith and sunnah books? I dont think you can just pick and choose ahadith from those books and start praying. There are so many different ahadith telling different ways and regulations. Which ones would you know are best to follow? You would have to look at the line of transmission, look at people who are relating them. what would tell you which transmission is sahih and who is a reliable source?

Brother thats where my problem starts, this is a thing in which we have no option but to follow learned people. This is regarding a matter of religion which concerns us alone, so blame of others is not an issue. But as soon as a point comes where we have to take a stand, have to face harsh words of people we back down. Why? because we dont need the scholars and its about time we rely on our own intelligence. No, if i know that most important pillar of my belief system requires me to follow and rely on works of more learned people, i have no shame in admitting it.

wassalam

p.s. I am sorry about carrying on and on but i thing every concern has to be addressed in such a major issue.


ASA
Sister Fatima:
I have no quarrel with this how to pray process,  prayer well learn I through by example of my dad who learned from his dad and then at somepoint a mullah was involved. My kids learned from me; It is logical! I keep a check that everything we do is hunky dory seen different ways with different folks even with salaat.

BUT when the book of Allah doesn't say do the stoning why go looking for the MO of stoning that is the point need clarified with continuity of it's application in the Islamic Empires of old.
It is a capital issue you know which is left room for debate, don't you think when it is so hard to apply a capital punishment for murder getting harder to apply!






Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 12 May 2007 at 3:58am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by minuteman

 

 In reply to Fatima, who wrote:

 Thats what i tried to ask you in my previous post, if such a major law was abrogated there must be a mention of it in islamic law books.

There is no need of any abrogation when there was no law of stoning. Can you find any word about stoning in the Quran?? No. So, there is no need for any verse which should abrogate some thing which is not there. I had told you that the prophet usefully acted according to oldest rebvealed law (i.e. Torah) untill new orders arrived.

Same is the case of change of Qiblah. Do you find any verse which tells the Prophet and the Muslims to pray facing Jeroshlem?? No. That is why there is no verse in the Quran which says that in future do not face Jeroshlem. There is an order to always face Ka'abah. But there is no word about forbidding to face Jeroshlem.

 

This is exactly why i dont want people like me and you to divulge in discussion like what followed in your original post. Here is the Ayaah of Holy Quran which orders the change of Qiblah, 2:144 'Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do'.

Brother deriving laws comes some ten steps after familiarisation of contents of Holy Qur'an. When companions took from a hadith of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam that marital relation are haram in month of ramadan, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala revealed ayaat to clarify it. When a sahabi radhiAllah anhu thought to himself that he would want to marry a wife of prophet after him, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala revealed ayaat to forbid that and told the ummah that wives of Prophet are Ummhaatul mu'mineen. So do you not think that if such a major issue remained amongst ummah, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would have told them very clearly to stop that practice.

And please do not say that there are no such incidents in history when law of stoning was put into practice because you yourself admitted it that there were cases. But then you say because they confessed so the punishment was given and we should leave it at that. Why? if the law was abrogated then does not matter whether some1 confessess or is proven through witnessess, the punishment is same.

Another thing muslims were told very strictly to not follow ways of non muslims, when they face baitul maqdi it was because it was told to them by their Lord.

If you have solid proof from history that law of stoning was abrogated then please bring it forward, otherwise there is no point in going in circles regarding this matter.

About the meaning of Muhsinaat, brother i think Maulana Mawdudi whose mastery of arabic is even acknowledged by scholars having arabic as their mother tongue is more qualified to give you the answer. But as you dont like to hear it from him, please tell me this, what does Holy Qur'an means when it is said that muslim men are allowed to marry 'Muhsinaat' from people of book. If 'Muhsinaat' only means married women as you say, this whole issue becomes very confusing dont you think?

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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bullet Posted: 12 May 2007 at 9:13am

 

 Fatima: I cannot understand what oto say about all these things when I had explained all very well. Do not ask Maudoodi sahib. Please see the dictionaty meaning or better than that see the Quran onlly. Mukhsanat is for the married ladies. In the example asked by you also the meaning is married ladies of the momineen are lawful and the married ladies of the people of the book are lawful when YOU have given them their dowery and when YOU have taken them in marriage (Mukhsineena)... That means when you have taken them in marriage they are mukhsanat.

I am sorry. I cannot do anything better. There is no order for facing Jeroshlem in Quran. There is verse telling the prophet that Allah will make him face the place of his desire i.e. Ka'abah. But there is no word about facing Jeroslem and there is no word about not to face Jeroshlem.

Similarly, there was the practice of stoning in the life time of the prophet s.a.w.s. But not after the revelation od verses of Surah Noor. There is no such thing. There is no order for stoning in the Quran therefore there is no need for any cancellation orders. So, there is no abrogation.

When it is said in Suarh Noor that these are the clear explicit orders then why do the scholars try to put secret Ihidden) meaning in them. Then yhey have to manipulate the meaning of Mukhsanat also differently for the free ladies and the servant ladies. Why made all the round about turns in religion?

You are asking me:  If you have solid proof from history that law of stoning was abrogated then please bring it forward, otherwise there is no point in going in circles regarding this matter.

Dear why I should provide that?? I do not believe that even one word of the quran is abogated. It is you who is believing in abrogation. So you should provide the proof please.

I respect Maudoodi sahib but I do not agree with him on many counts. He wrote the tafseer from his head according to his wishes that it should be like that and that. That was npt good. I am sorry, I could not go along with many of his views. He believed that there is not going to be any news now from Allah to any one. The Imam Mahdi who will come will not know that he is Imam Mahdi... You see these are not good things. There are many more... I do not want to spread the matter. Maudoodi sahib made many mistakes religiously and politically. He was a political leader.

More later, please do not mind. If you cannot listen to my these points then I will not write any of those things any more. Forgive.

About Hadith, I also learnt my Wudho and Salat from my father and teachers, never from the books of Hadith. I beliece that Hadith is a servant of the Quran and a servant of the Sunnat (Practice ) of the holy prophet s.a.w.s.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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bullet Posted: 13 May 2007 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 Some cases were reported and some were confessed by the adulterer himself. The prophet s.a.w.s. turned his face to the otherside as he had not heard anything. But the sinner insisted and confessed again and again. So he was punished.

There are two methods to determine adultery:

1) confession

2) four witnesses

So it is not a mystery that there are examples of rajm being ordered after someone confesses.

 

But please forget those cases if they happened before the revelation of the Surah Noor (24).

You are going to have to prove your claim.

Rajm was practiced without hesitation by the followers of the Prophet (saw) after the death of the Prophet (saw).

There is no debate about that.

Perhaps you know something more than the first three generations? Including the first three generations of people in Medina?

 

 The prophet was very well acting on the law of the Torah at that time.

This is simply inaccurate. The Prophet (saw) did not act with the dictates of the Torah, he simply allowed Jews to use their own law, in accordance to Allah (swt).

 

When the order for 100 lashes was revealed in chapter 24, then after that it was a different thing. Let us continue discussing it. Thanks.

There is no dispute that Rajm was practiced as part of the sacred law well into the later years of the Prophet and it continued after him, and it was a non disputed form of punishment by the companions.

If you have special guidance that the companions were not privy to, I would like to see it?

 

I see that there is no mention of stoning to death of the adulterer in the Quran.

There is no mention of dead fish being halal, regardless if it died on its own without slaughter, there is also no mention of its blood being "clean".

Your statement is simply erroneous, because it assumes that the Quran is interpreted alone without the context of the Messenger of Allah (saw). If you try to interpret the Quran through your own personal conjecture and whims, then you are deviated from the truth and you risk bringing in forms of "innovation".

The Quran simply does not tell us that rajm is not to be used for adulterers either.

 

 

 Ulema are of the opinion that serious matters about faith (Kufar and Islam) or life and death cannot be decided by a Hadith alone.

This is a complete fabrication. Hadith can be used to decide serious matters only if they are rigorously authenticated. The issue of rajm has been authenticated, and the Prophet (saw), and the first three generations carried out the practice.

 

 

 proof for that should come from the Quran. This being a matter of life and death, it cannot be left to the Hadith alone. In the Jewish law the punishment for adultry is stoning to death. We are not Jews.

 

You are mixed up about the relationship between the Quran and the Hadith. If your "axiom" is true, then one would need the Quran to prove that we do not need to slaughter fish before consumption.

Whether we are Jews or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the proof for using rajm does not come from the Torah, it comes from Allah, and we were taught this form of punishment by Allah through His Messenger.  

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