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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 5:40am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by minuteman

 

 I have to write more because of angela. I believe that there is no stoning to death for an adulterer, married or unmarried. The verse of Surah Noor is very clear about it. There is to be 100 lashes only. There are people who say that according to Hadith the married adulterer should be stoned to death. That cannot be true.

The reason they give is that there is a secret meaning in that verse of Surah Noor and it is in regard of the unmarried adulterer only and it is not about the married adulterer. I don't see any secret meaning. The verse No.1 of the chapter is stating clearly:

24:1,  This is a chapter that we have revealed and made its commands binding and we have revealed in it the clear signs (verses and commands) so that you may remember them.

In the verse it says that there are clear un-ambigous meanings (verses). There is no secret meaning. It is very clear (Bayyan) meaning.

I take the original practice of the prophet the same as he was praying facing towards Jerushlem in the beginning until the new orders arrived. After that he never did it. The punishment for adultery in the Torah is stoning to death and that is what the prophet practiced untill the chapter Noor was revealed.

There is another interesting point in this matter. It is the order in ch. 4:25 that if any married Muslimah (maid, slave) servant indulges in adultery, her punishment is half that of a free married woman.

Now, please tell me, if the punishment for the married woman is stoning to death then how will you make that punishment to half. How can the stoning to death be made half?? that shows clearly that the punishment for the married and unmarried men and women is only 100 lashes as ordered by the Quran. It is not stoning to death.

Similarly, there is no punishment for an apostate, unless there be a state of war. Any one is allowed to become a Muslim. If he gets dis-satisfied with Islam, he can denounce it clearly and walk away. If he has not killed any one in the process then there is no punishment for him. Nothing is mentioned in the Quran that an apostate has to be killed. That is all against the basic principle of the Quran which states that "There is no compulsion in the  matters of religion." 2:256.

 

This is very interesting for me, brother is this your own view or is it view of some scholar? The reason i am asking is because saying that the revelation of Surah Noor was after those ahadith which mention stoning requires a very detailed knoweldge of Holy Quran and that of ahadith. But what you have explained of punishment for a slave girl makes quite alot of sense but again if it is coming from a common person then i am sure there is going to be a good explanation of it with the scholars.

If anyone is picking such a big issue then you have to have backing of good early and later generation of scholars. The other issue you raised about apostate, scholars like Maulana Mawdudi do write a small passage of banishment so there is a small window but no one give attention to it reason not entirely known to me. So what you saying is not existence of two views but you are talking about abrogation of a law. Then there have to be scholars from early or later period who you can mention of telling us about the time period of that abrogation?

Another thing you mentioned is Holy Qur'an being clear, please also see the ayaah in Aale Imraan:7 which mentions that there are some clear ayaat and some not very clear ones. And also in many places Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that Holy Quran is a guidance for people of taqwa, for people of understanding and for people who fear their Lord.

wassalam



Edited by fatima
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 10:56am

Dear fatima,

I would like to make some comments:

It was indeed good of you to have brought up Verse 7 from Surah 3 Ale-Imraan and I will do a transliteration followed by translation and comments:

"Howal-lazi anzala alaikal kitaaba minho aayatum-muhkamaatun, hunna ummul kitaabe wa ukhro mutashaabihaat. Fa-ammal-lazeena fee qulubehim zaighun, fa-yat-tabe-oona ma tashaabaha minhub-tighaa'al fitnate wabtighaaa'a taaweelehe. Wama ya'alamo taaweelahu ill-Al-lah. * War-raasekhuna fil-ilme yaquloona, 'Aamanna bayhe, qullum min inday-rabbayna'. Wa ma yaz-zakkaro illa oo'lool-albaab."

Simple explanatory translation:

"Allah is the one who gave you this book, in which there are clearly decreed verses, these are the essence/foundation of this book and others are allegorical. As for those people whose hearts swerve to dig other meanings, go after the allegorical verses creating confusion by  presenting their own explanation. No one knows the explanation of such verses but only Allah. * And those of sound knowledge say, 'We believe in this and it is all from our Lord'. And those of understanding do keep this in mind." 

My point: Right at the start of the Chapter, Allah warned us not to delve and dig meanings from verses which were allegorical, parable-like or examples. It does not mean that Allah did not let anyone understand the allegorical verses. It means those gifted with knowledge would be able to understand them correctly. In both passages above, I have shown the exact positions of commas and full-stops (period) clearly for all here. I have used the sign * to show the break between verses and that break is very important. It is known as waqfe-laazim. One must stop at that point.

And right here, where Allah explained,  two sects of Islam differ in reading. I would not name them.

One reads as "No one knows the explanation of such verses but only Allah. And those of sound knowledge say,......" (Correct)

The other reads the same as "No one knows the explanation of such verses but only Allah and those of sound knowledge say,....." (Incorrect)

My next point: Thus the decrees and commands are clearly ordained. No confusion is left in.

Let us take V14 and V15 of Surah 4 Al-Nisa:

For V14, it is said that "For those women who have been accused of indecency, get 4 witnesses from you and if they witness positively, keep them within the homes till they die or till Allah finds a way out for them." Now some scholars believe that Allah found the way and later the death punishment of stoning was the way, according to scholars of Hadith!! 

And in V15, "If two men,  from you, were found committing indeceny, punish them but if they repent and turn better, leave the both alone."  

How could we say that the woman must be put to death and the men can go scott-free? If we are supposed to learn, read and understand Qur'aan and have been ordered by Allah to deliberate over Qur'aan, why cannot we deliberate on Ahaadith? 

There are hardly a few cases reported in Hadith for justifying stoning to death as punishment. This punishment was never rampant.

I can go on and on with many examples but time does not permit. All I want to say that we have been gifted with Qur'aan and we have been allowed by the Lord Almighty to think and reflect over it's verses. Surah Noor is crystal clear, why make it dim by jumping over to a death punishment quoting a few examples from Hadith?

For Qur'aan, it is said in Qur'aan,"Haaza bayaanul-lil-naas." meaning "This Qur'aan states clearly for people."

Please forgive me, if I have made any mistake in quoting, transliterating and translating in my own English. The idea is to let all know what I know and what I understand. I am not a scholar. May Allah forgive me too. Ameen.

Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

 

 



Edited by bmzsp
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 11:44am

 

 Please allow me. I am not a follower of Maulana Maudoodi sahib. But I remember one important good advice (or writing) of the maulana that is as follows:

"Those things which are very serious such as Eiman and Kufr or life and death matters, for them the order should come from the Quran. Such matters should not be decided by the Hadith alone."

Now, please look. According to the above writing, the order for stoning must come from the Quran. It cannot be left to the Hadith alone. And there is nothing (not a word) in he Quran about stoning the adulterer to death. I will write mor elater, Insha Allah.

 

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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by minuteman

 

 I have to write more because of angela. I believe that there is no stoning to death for an adulterer, married or unmarried. The verse of Surah Noor is very clear about it. There is to be 100 lashes only. There are people who say that according to Hadith the married adulterer should be stoned to death. That cannot be true.

The reason they give is that there is a secret meaning in that verse of Surah Noor and it is in regard of the unmarried adulterer only and it is not about the married adulterer. I don't see any secret meaning. The verse No.1 of the chapter is stating clearly:

24:1,  This is a chapter that we have revealed and made its commands binding and we have revealed in it the clear signs (verses and commands) so that you may remember them.

In the verse it says that there are clear un-ambigous meanings (verses). There is no secret meaning. It is very clear (Bayyan) meaning.

I take the original practice of the prophet the same as he was praying facing towards Jerushlem in the beginning until the new orders arrived. After that he never did it. The punishment for adultery in the Torah is stoning to death and that is what the prophet practiced untill the chapter Noor was revealed.

There is another interesting point in this matter. It is the order in ch. 4:25 that if any married Muslimah (maid, slave) servant indulges in adultery, her punishment is half that of a free married woman.

Now, please tell me, if the punishment for the married woman is stoning to death then how will you make that punishment to half. How can the stoning to death be made half?? that shows clearly that the punishment for the married and unmarried men and women is only 100 lashes as ordered by the Quran. It is not stoning to death.

Similarly, there is no punishment for an apostate, unless there be a state of war. Any one is allowed to become a Muslim. If he gets dis-satisfied with Islam, he can denounce it clearly and walk away. If he has not killed any one in the process then there is no punishment for him. Nothing is mentioned in the Quran that an apostate has to be killed. That is all against the basic principle of the Quran which states that "There is no compulsion in the  matters of religion." 2:256.

 

This is very interesting for me, brother is this your own view or is it view of some scholar? The reason i am asking is because saying that the revelation of Surah Noor was after those ahadith which mention stoning requires a very detailed knoweldge of Holy Quran and that of ahadith. But what you have explained of punishment for a slave girl makes quite alot of sense but again if it is coming from a common person then i am sure there is going to be a good explanation of it with the scholars.

If anyone is picking such a big issue then you have to have backing of good early and later generation of scholars. The other issue you raised about apostate, scholars like Maulana Mawdudi do write a small passage of banishment so there is a small window but no one give attention to it reason not entirely known to me. So what you saying is not existence of two views but you are talking about abrogation of a law. Then there have to be scholars from early or later period who you can mention of telling us about the time period of that abrogation?

Another thing you mentioned is Holy Qur'an being clear, please also see the ayaah in Aale Imraan:7 which mentions that there are some clear ayaat and some not very clear ones. And also in many places Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that Holy Quran is a guidance for people of taqwa, for people of understanding and for people who fear their Lord.

wassalam



ASA sister Fatima;

 It is such a sad commentary on the affairs of the fractured Ummah that adultery is not a crime in places like Turkey; which used to be the seat of the Caliphate. The scholars made the creed so complicated that the new inheritors of the land of Turks threw the baby with the bath water i.e., no Islamic rules in the land.

Here an obvious reading of the Holy Quraan settles some issue and still we are talking about scholars. Why do we need scholars for such simple stuff ? Not that a judgment is at hand and punishment needs to be applied!
Doesn't it make sense to keep the Quraanic reading as simple as possible and not go looking for the hidden meaning  when it isn't the case.


Edited by Sign*Reader
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Arab

the stoning penalty is impossible to be applied. it needs four witnesses who saw the entire act of adultry from begening till end. this is impossible. the law is there, just to scare them. its impossible some one is going 2 get stoned because when ppl have sexual intercourse they do it in private where are four witnesses going to come from and watch the entire thing? Impossible. If someone is caught with four witnesses who saw him do it he should be stoned for being st**id enough to get caught :p the fact is, the law is there, but never would it be possible to stone one.

Assalam Aleikum.

It was applied in the day of the Prophet (saw) and can still be applied, one of the other requirements is a confession, and people have freely confessed.

 



How did they find four witnesses who sat there and watched like a porn?




Edited by Sign*Reader
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bullet Posted: 07 May 2007 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Arab

the stoning penalty is impossible to be applied. it needs four witnesses who saw the entire act of adultry from begening till end. this is impossible. the law is there, just to scare them. its impossible some one is going 2 get stoned because when ppl have sexual intercourse they do it in private where are four witnesses going to come from and watch the entire thing? Impossible. If someone is caught with four witnesses who saw him do it he should be stoned for being st**id enough to get caught :p the fact is, the law is there, but never would it be possible to stone one.

Assalam Aleikum.

It was applied in the day of the Prophet (saw) and can still be applied, one of the other requirements is a confession, and people have freely confessed.

 



How did they find four witnesses who sat there and watched like a porn?


They had a confession which suffices as equal to four witnesses, and Allah Knows Best.

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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2007 at 4:42am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

JazakAllah khair brother BMZ for explaining the ayah in detail and i agree with what you said but reason i quoted the ayah was that every1 keeps quoting the ayaat, Holy Quran is easy to understand. But forget that there are parts which are not clear enough for every1 to understand.

Surah Noor was revealed in Madinah but Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam also punished three sahabah with punishment of stoning in Madinah. Also case of some jews bringing their dispute of same type to him and asking him to decide and revelation of 5:15 happening relating that matter. Thing is all our Khulfae rashideen kept the law of stoning, first three generations had a unanimous views about it, almost every well known and respected scholar of later generations had this view. Pick any well known and world wide accepted tafsir and read the explanation and reason behind the revelation of 5:15 and you will see where stoning is prescribed in Holy Quran.

I am taking this from Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Allah says:

[ ]

(The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.) This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah . One of them said, "O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son one hundred sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said that my son should be given one hundred stripes and banished for a year, and that this man's wife should be stoned to death.'' The Messenger of Allah said:

ǡ ǻ

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and sheep, and your son is to be given one hundred stripes and banished for one year. O Unays -- he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam -- go to this man's wife, and if she confesses, then stone her to death.) Unays went to her and she confessed, so he stoned her to death. This indicates that if the person who is guilty of illegal sex is a virgin and unmarried, he should be banished in addition to being given one hundred stripes. But if married, meaning he has had intercourse within the bounds of lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind, then he should be stoned to death. Imam Malik recorded that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, stood up and praised and glorified Allah, then he said; "O people! Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that was revealed to him was the Ayah of stoning to death, which we have recited and understood. The Messenger of Allah carried out the punishment of stoning and after him we did so, but I am afraid that as time goes by, some will say that they did not find the Ayah of stoning in the Book of Allah, and they will go astray because they abandoned one of the obligations revealed by Allah. Stoning is something that is prescribed in the Book of Allah for the person -- man or woman -- who commits illegal sex, if he or she is married, if decisive evidence is produced, or if pregnancy results from that, or if they confess to it.'' It was also recorded in the Two Sahihs in the lengthy Hadith of Malik, from which we have quoted briefly only the portion that is relevant to the current discussion.

I am not knowledgable enough, all i know is that if what has been passed down to us was said by Umar radhiAllah anhu then i fear my Lord to say anything on contrary. As brother Arad has said that islamic condition for witnessing makes it almost immposible to prove but law of our Most Supreme Lord is there according to sahih traditions and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows best.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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bullet Posted: 08 May 2007 at 4:45am

 

 Some cases were reported and some were confessed by the adulterer himself. The prophet s.a.w.s. turned his face to the otherside as he had not heard anything. But the sinner insisted and confessed again and again. So he was punished.

But please forget those cases if they happened before the revelation of the Surah Noor (24). The prophet was very well acting on the law of the Torah at that time. When the order for 100 lashes was revealed in chapter 24, then after that it was a different thing. Let us continue discussing it. Thanks.

I see that there is no mention of stoning to death of the adulterer in the Quran. Ulema are of the opinion that serious matters about faith (Kufar and Islam) or life and death cannot be decided by a Hadith alone. proof for that should come from the Quran. This being a matter of life and death, it cannot be left to the Hadith alone. In the Jewish law the punishment for adultry is stoning to death. We are not Jews.

 

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