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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Quran and Hadith(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 6:50pm

 

 The matter of stoning any adulterer will be considered same as prayer used to be offered facing Jeroshlem in the early years. But it is no more allowed to do so.

There is no difference between a married adulterer and unmarried. THERE is no allowance to any one for the act of adultry.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Abeer23
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Angela

Well, Abeer, I'm more looking at the direct contradictions.  Like my example.  In a Hadith, the Prophet (pbuh) was brought two Jews who had commited adultery.  He judged them according to their own book.  In the Torah, the punishment is Stoning.  Thus, the Prophet (pbuh) punished adulterers with stoning.  However, the Quran is very specific in this case.

That's just it.  The Qur'an isn't specific in this case.  You're reading the ayah (24:2) in English.  I think this is where the confusion is coming from.  The translator has translated zina to mean fornication and adultery as if there is a distinction in the Arabic term.  However, zina simply means voluntary sex between a man and woman that are not married.  Thus this is a very general statement in the Qur'an.  The sunnah, specifies the punishment for a married person that has illegal sex and the unmarried person that has illegal sex.  There's no contradiction.

My question is, if the Quran is very specific about something and a hadith changes that drastically, which is the Law?

This is not possible.  If it happens then the hadith is obviously not authentic (hence the ruling from the Qur'an is applied). 

I watched a show the other night where a girl (16) was hung in Iran for fornication.  There were claims that she was actually being sexually abused by the much older man.  He received 100 lashes, but she was hung.  There are cases in the middle east where stoning is the preferred punishment. 

Just because something is happening in the Middle East doesn't mean the practice has been taken from the sunnah.  Governments do not represent Islam, the Qur'an and sunnah do.

I have been seeing some minor arguments amoung all of you about the Hadith versus the Quran.  I guess that's why I'm trying to understand the times where the Quran is very specific, yet it almost seems like the Hadith are given more weight?

If the Qur'an is specific, there's no room for argument.  That's why there are so many things that all  Muslims regardless of nationality or madhhab agree on.

Salaam

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Abeer23
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 10:43pm

"This is more of a curiosity piece, but this man wronged his wife, why is he instructed not to tell her and seek her forgiveness too????  What if he got sick because of his affair?  Ugh, I hate double standards.  Stone the woman even if she's repentent, tell the man to keep it a secret and pray.   grrrrr."

Actually a person is not supposed to make public their sins when Allah has concealed them.  Even a person that converts to Islam, should not mention his sins from jahiliyah to others.  I remember a story (may Allah forgive me if I'm wrong), a sahabi came to the Prophet (s.a.w) and admitted to having commited zina (no one else knew about it) and requested punishment.  The Prophet (s.a.w) told him he shouldn't have told but since he'd already admitted to the crime, he was punished.  This isn't only for men, the same applies to women.

 

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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2007 at 11:56am

 

 I have to write more because of angela. I believe that there is no stoning to death for an adulterer, married or unmarried. The verse of Surah Noor is very clear about it. There is to be 100 lashes only. There are people who say that according to Hadith the married adulterer should be stoned to death. That cannot be true.

The reason they give is that there is a secret meaning in that verse of Surah Noor and it is in regard of the unmarried adulterer only and it is not about the married adulterer. I don't see any secret meaning. The verse No.1 of the chapter is stating clearly:

24:1,  This is a chapter that we have revealed and made its commands binding and we have revealed in it the clear signs (verses and commands) so that you may remember them.

In the verse it says that there are clear un-ambigous meanings (verses). There is no secret meaning. It is very clear (Bayyan) meaning.

I take the original practice of the prophet the same as he was praying facing towards Jerushlem in the beginning until the new orders arrived. After that he never did it. The punishment for adultery in the Torah is stoning to death and that is what the prophet practiced untill the chapter Noor was revealed.

There is another interesting point in this matter. It is the order in ch. 4:25 that if any married Muslimah (maid, slave) servant indulges in adultery, her punishment is half that of a free married woman.

Now, please tell me, if the punishment for the married woman is stoning to death then how will you make that punishment to half. How can the stoning to death be made half?? that shows clearly that the punishment for the married and unmarried men and women is only 100 lashes as ordered by the Quran. It is not stoning to death.

Similarly, there is no punishment for an apostate, unless there be a state of war. Any one is allowed to become a Muslim. If he gets dis-satisfied with Islam, he can denounce it clearly and walk away. If he has not killed any one in the process then there is no punishment for him. Nothing is mentioned in the Quran that an apostate has to be killed. That is all against the basic principle of the Quran which states that "There is no compulsion in the  matters of religion." 2:256.

 



Edited by minuteman
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2007 at 7:05pm

Angela,

Qur'aan stands supreme over hadith. Stoning people to death is Murder under a different name.

The Lord Almighty expects people to repent and turn to Him. How can people repent if they are not given a chance?

If stoning to death had been ordained, it would have been followed strictly in all Muslim states.

The only death sentence prescribed in Qur'aan is for premeditated murder.

If you read the hadith literature, it has even details on how to lash. The lashing is for shaming in public so that others are careful. Lashing has to be done so as to avoid tearing the skin apart.

In Islam, Zina (Illegal sexual intercourse) is forbidden. It covers all, whether married, single, boy, girl, etc. Both found guilty should be lashed.

 

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Arab
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2007 at 8:05pm
the stoning penalty is impossible to be applied. it needs four witnesses who saw the entire act of adultry from begening till end. this is impossible. the law is there, just to scare them. its impossible some one is going 2 get stoned because when ppl have sexual intercourse they do it in private where are four witnesses going to come from and watch the entire thing? Impossible. If someone is caught with four witnesses who saw him do it he should be stoned for being st**id enough to get caught :p the fact is, the law is there, but never would it be possible to stone one.
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Arab
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2007 at 8:08pm
my advise to u is go to www.chatislam.com on a weekend nd speak to a scholar there and see what he tells u. its a chat dedicated for teaching ppl islam n for new muslims and its very good.
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 06 May 2007 at 10:53pm

Originally posted by Arab

the stoning penalty is impossible to be applied. it needs four witnesses who saw the entire act of adultry from begening till end. this is impossible. the law is there, just to scare them. its impossible some one is going 2 get stoned because when ppl have sexual intercourse they do it in private where are four witnesses going to come from and watch the entire thing? Impossible. If someone is caught with four witnesses who saw him do it he should be stoned for being st**id enough to get caught :p the fact is, the law is there, but never would it be possible to stone one.

Assalam Aleikum.

It was applied in the day of the Prophet (saw) and can still be applied, one of the other requirements is a confession, and people have freely confessed.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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