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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:53am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

Brother first rule of understanding Holy Quran is 'knowing Holy Quran through Holy Quran' which is explaining one verse through another verse from another part. Your example could easily be explained through another ayah where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that it is not the eyes that grow blind but it is the heart that is blind. This clearly makes it metaphorical. As brother has already asked you to please bring the proof from Holy Quran or sunnah that description of hell is metaphorical, not the jannah but hellfire.

However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.

You got to be kidding me, a person who inserts his own name in Holy Quran, i would not trust that man as far as i can throw him. Brother be very carefull of where you take your deen from.

Wassalam


 

 

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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superme
 
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Quote superme Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 9:38pm

Originally posted by abdul-quddus

As-salaamu ‘alaykum.

Here are my questions: How have you, as a practicing Muslim, dealt with the distinguishing characteristics of Allaah (swt) in light of Soorah al-Ikhlaas? Specifically, I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne, etc. By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept.
 

Alaikumus Salaam.

The explicit Biblical description of God as a person residing in a place is the main culprit of this. This is from the NT: When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Lk 11:2

There is/are also passages in the Qur'an that almost can be taken that way - while the Khadiths is the place where anything goes.

This link will give you an idea what I believe as what God is, at least it is a good place to start. Maybe you have seen it before.

http://www.geocities.com/greenbirdy/pen.html

Originally posted by

Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan? If this struggle pertains to your experience, how have you coped when you confronted the questionable subject matter in your religion?

As I am getting older my understanding of hells and heavens also change. Physical fire is only works with physical bodies, so too the physical heaven. The understanding of God as somewhere outthere with His hells and heavens also outthere create the difficulties to comprehend  them. Changing our view of what God is - is the best way to understand the Qur'an and Islam in general.

The whole existance is structured like pyramid, we start from the bottom. The most distinguished is sitting at the top - alone. It is an impossibility for the top position to be occupied by more than one sitter. This is the throne of the controller so to speak. We are commanded to work for what we deserved if we desire to do so. It is matter of who is willing to go up there.


Originally posted by

Surprisingly, the greatest obstacle to becoming a better Muslim was something within my Qur’aan. Perhaps, in all fairness, the problem is within my mind only. I still remember the day I read of The Shin in one particular ayaah. The apparent cruelty to be meted out upon disbelievers in Hellfire is quite disturbing to me.

Hells and heavens are the default of existance, they are there as part of the system. By dislike it does not make it not in existance, by liking it does not make it exist. They are just there same as our existance, part of the grand existance.

Originally posted by

I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh.

Jinn and Jannah are interestingly sharing the same root, J and N. When Iblis as one of the JINN disobey the command to bow down to Adam, God could not punish him there and then - except by removing him from the JANNAH (state), no fire was involved there.

As for Nuh story I don't know your direction. Nuh was the first person to build a boat, and he was inspired as how to build it. The water was coming and he was told as how to survive. His son who knew nothing about the rising water did not listen to his father, the man who knew. I hope this help or at least as a thing to ponder.

Salaam

He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward;
and He is Knower of all things
. (57:3)

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Quote Idris Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:22am
Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by Idris

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!
excatly, And About Hell its not obvious, this is only you or misguided rashad khalifa understood that way. Just because Hell's description is too harsh you can't declare it as metaphorical.

Once again you ignore my arguments and points.

It's metaphorical because the Qur'an says so in the verse!


Originally posted by Idris

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.
No, this is not metaphor. This is just how language is.. You translate this verse in any language, any sane person will understand the meaning of blind without any explanation. You don't have to go and explain to them meaning of blind. Where as about the description of hell, you (or Rahsad Khalifa) have to come up and explain it according to your understanding.

You are not listening and refusing to listen. You are ignoring my arguments.

The word 'blind' in the Qur'an is not literal. Yet you seem to have impaired understanding!

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

This proves verses in the Qur'an can be metaphorical.

Before we go ahead let me explain..

I take understanding of Quran and Hadith from Sahabah, Tabeen and Taba Tabeen and their followers. In short I consider myself among Ahlus Sunnah. I do not accept if every other person comes with the his own explanation of Deen.

any knowledgeable person, whether religious or not, whether scholar or not, understands that sentences can be metaphorical. You don't get this.

The Qur'an has said that Heaven, let alone hell, is described metaphorically. Isn't this proof that Heaven, let alone hell, is metaphorically described?


If you do not agree with me, than let's start a new thread on the very basis of understanding of Deen instead of description of hell. because we will be debating on same topic with two different beliefs and this won't bring any conclusion to us.

Okay sure.


I'm not sure where we differ among our views of deen, but okay.

may God bless you

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Quote Idris Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:32am
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

wa alakum salam wa rahemtu Allah wa barekto


The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

Brother first rule of understanding Holy Quran is 'knowing Holy Quran through Holy Quran' which is explaining one verse through another verse from another part. Your example could easily be explained through another ayah where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that it is not the eyes that grow blind but it is the heart that is blind. This clearly makes it metaphorical.


First of all, you argue what being blind is metaphorical. Which i am already doing!!!

I used the example of being blind as a metaphor. To prove metaphors exist.

So why are you saying "you're wrong. it's a metaphor". ?

As brother has already asked you to please bring the proof from Holy Quran or sunnah that description of hell is metaphorical, not the jannah but hellfire.

Once again, this time using Yusuf Ali:

47:15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

In other words, "can the Parable of paradise be compared to the parable of hell?".

Second, Heaven is allegorical (which from almost translations is undoubtable), Heaven is a place with God. Therefore, Hell which is the opposite, is a place without God.


However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.

You got to be kidding me, a person who inserts his own name in Holy Quran, i would not trust that man as far as i can throw him. Brother be very carefull of where you take your deen from.

Wassalam

I am not taking my deen from anywhere. I have examined khaflia's translation and used it alot, simply because it one of the best out there. I know where he's gone wrong in his translations, for example translating the arabic incorrectly so it looks the computer is predicted, which it isn't.

I would rather use an accurate translation containing one or two blasmphemies, then a translation like Pickthall's which is a very inaccurate outdated translation. 

may God bless you.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:38am
Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem

Ok ill put it to you in plain English you would be a kafir not to believe in the physical punishment of jahhanam as it is part of muslim aqeedah, [84;7-13].

Not only is it physical in nature but we also know how hot it will burn and many other of its characteristics. Saying the only punishment they will receive is not seeing allah is like ignoring the sky when you walk outside everyday.

You have not shown any verse which supersedes every other verse so stop your ranting and start a new topic if you wish to discuss this further.

Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:54am

Bisimillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

First example i gave you was to tell you why it is a metaphore, not to say you are wrong. Your problem starts when you quote an ayah and take the meaning of your desire from it without any proof.

Once again, this time using Yusuf Ali:

47:15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

In other words, "can the Parable of paradise be compared to the parable of hell?".

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not say 'parable of hell', He gives the parable of jannah and tells us that people of jannah will enjoy that bliss and then asks us to compare people of both places '(Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

Second, Heaven is allegorical (which from almost translations is undoubtable),

Yes heaven's description is somewhat metaphorical because we are told in Holy Quran that no soul can think of what is kept hidden for her. We are told that people of jannah will get whatever they desire for. In the same context if you saying that hell is metaphorical then i will agree because we are told in ahadith that fire of hell is 70 times hotter than the fire we have on earth.

Heaven is a place with God. Therefore, Hell which is the opposite, is a place without God.

But the explanations you give have no base at all, you are using one ayah which does not even mean what you implementing.

I would again have to ask you to please bring your proof from Holy Quran where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that description of hell is metaphorical.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote Arab Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 4:16am
ibn baz may Allah have mercy on him never said that the earth was flat.
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Quote Arab Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2007 at 4:25am
Why do u want to debate? I thought these were doubts u had. If they were, u got the explanation by the brothers and sisters here. U either accept them or leave them. What do you want?!
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