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Islam for non-Muslims
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 4:27am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne,

This is a generalised way of describing his attributes [99 attributes]. His right hand depending on the context means nearness or in other contexts it means his attributes of power and justice eg Haqq just to name a few.

None of these are taken literally, have you ever come across a traditional muslim scholar who has interpreted them in such a way.

By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept.

There have been some scholars and groups who have done this in the past but the vast majority of scholars have rejected them and in reality they are not speaking from something they know or have been taught but from there own selfs, as allah says in the Quran nothing is like him so how can his saying my foot or hand or mouth be taken literally.

Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan?

What will you do with satan when his time comes and after knowing full well what he has done to humanity. What will you do with Hitler and the countless rulers who have done the same. What of every person who has been persecuted and oppressed when will they receive justice for how they have been wronged.

What would you do to warn people away from doing wrong things, look at people now they know accept and believe in the
pernicious nature hell and still behave the way they have. If hell did not exist in the hereafter then people would turn this world into hell. It serves a purpose and as punishment for those who refuse to obey Allah, he has given them ample warning and descriptions of what hell is like so they dont even think twice about how serious and horrific a place it is.

The apparent cruelty to be meted out upon disbelievers in Hellfire is quite disturbing to me.

Is disbeliefe there only crime?

I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh. It’s strange how just the disbelief in jinn makes one a kaafir.

Its disbelief in the Quran that makes one a Kafir not disbelief in Jinn but since Allah has made there existence known in the Quran it is the same thing. If you dont have trouble believing in Satan then you should have no greater trouble believing in Jinn, the only difference being satan was from the jinn and not a fallen angel as christians believe.

I’d most likely become an extremist pushing my fellow brothers into the masjid and campaigning for the implementation of sharee’ah in my society.

You have to accept people with there faults otherwise your heart would become hard from being around them, just know inside your self what they do is wrong and that is least of what is expected of you.

Idris, Abuzaid is correct in what he says.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Idris
 
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Quote Idris Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Rami


Idris, Abuzaid is correct in what he says.


Well he's going to have to prove me wrong then.

Originally posted by abuzaid

According to Britannica..

Allegorical means.

1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of allegory
2 : having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text

Means something different from what is said.

I already know what allegorical is. It means the same thing as metaphorical. It's a physical metaphorical description to emphasis the spiritual.


Further.

I check three translation fo Quran, Shakir, Picktha and Yusuf Ali. No one have used word allegorical in either of the ayah. Which transaltion you are referring to.



Pickthall and Yusuf ali are very bad and old translations. I recommend you use something more modern and accurate

Quran clearly mentions about flames in hell we don't have any authority to change its meaning.

similitude is different from allegory



You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.
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abuzaid
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:53am

Originally posted by Idris



You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.
This is you who have to prove. I took Quran as it says and you are adding a point that this is metaphorical. Does Quran says that description of hell as mentioned in Quran is metaphorical? or you are adding something from your side and asking me to prove?

BTW, could you guide me from where did you take the translation.

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Quote Idris Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 11:59am
Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by Idris



You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.
This is you who have to prove. I took Quran as it says and you are adding a point that this is metaphorical.

Don't ignore the earlier quoted verses.

Does Quran says that description of hell as mentioned in Quran is metaphorical? or you are adding something from your side and asking me to prove?

It says the the allegory of {people being in Heaven with rivers of honey or whatnot} is better than the allegory of {people in hell}.

See earlier quoted verse.


BTW, could you guide me from where did you take the translation.



Pickthall A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?
Yusuf Ali (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
Hilali-Khan =2>The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels?
Shakir A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.
Sher Ali A description of the Garden promised to the righteous: Therein are streams of water which corrupts not; and streams of milk of which the taste changes not; and streams of wine, a delight to those who drink; and streams of clarified honey. And in it they will have all kinds of fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord. Can those who enjoy such bliss be like those who abide in the Fire and who are given boiling water to drink so that it tears their bowels?
Khalifa The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this: it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
Arberry This is the similitude of Paradise which the godfearing have been promised: therein are rivers of water unstaling, rivers of milk unchanging in flavour, and rivers of wine -- a delight to the drinkers, rivers, too, of honey purified; and therein for them is every fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord -- Are they as he who dwells forever in the Fire, such as are given to drink boiling water, that tears their bowels asunder?
Palmer The similitude of Paradise which is promised to the pious,- in it are rivers of water without corruption, and rivers of milk, the taste whereof changes not, and rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of honey clarified; and there shall they have all kinds of fruit and forgiveness from their Lord! (Is that) like him who dwells in the fire for aye? and who are given to drink boiling water that shall rend their bowels asunder?
Rodwell A picture of the Paradise which is promised to the God-fearing! Therein are rivers of water, which corrupt not: rivers of milk, whose taste changeth not: and rivers of wine, delicious to those who quaff it; And rivers of honey clarified: and therein are all kinds of fruit for them from their Lord! Is this like the lot of those who must dwell for ever in the fire? and shall have draughts of boiling water forced on them which will rend their bowels asunder?
Sale The description of paradise, which is promised unto the pious: Therein [are] rivers of incorruptibel water; and rivers of milk, the taste whereof changeth not; and rivers of wine, pleasant unto those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey: And therein shall they have [plenty] of all [kinds] of fruits; and pardon from their Lord. [Shall the man for whom these things are prepared, be] as he who must dwell for ever in [hell] fire; and will have the boiling water given them to drink, which shall burst their bowels?

47:15

"Progressive Muslims"
Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?


All these translations say the same meaning at the beginning of each verse:
"the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture"....in context these mean exactly the same thing.

may God bless you.




Edited by Idris
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 6:35pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

you didnt just say it was allegorical you offered up your own explanation of what it was which is completely wrong.

We have literal description of hell in other verses and ahadith none of what you quote above says every other thing mentioned is "the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" this is your own addition.

Most use the literal word description and some similitude:
a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
b. A perceptible likeness.

Which in the above simply means similar but not exact, this does not open up the way for interpretation since they are not an allegory or parable.

Alegory: a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

something cant be abstract and similar at the same time, clearly you are reading to much into this.

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:01pm

Idris,

The only person who used allegory is khalifa, and I think this is rashad khalifa who founded that group by name submitters. You know what it means?

About the metaphors.. Do you think that we can take liberty of declaring anything in Quran as metaphorical? If someone comes up and say that revelation and Prophethood is only metaphorical, would you accept it just because it makes more sense to you? or if someone declare God himself is mteaphorical and prove atheism from Quran..

What I mean is that you are proposing a principle by which anything can be made nothing.

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Quote Idris Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 2:24am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

you didnt just say it was allegorical you offered up your own explanation of what it was which is completely wrong.


I offered a meaning of allegorical.


We have literal description of hell in other verses and ahadith none of what you quote above says every other thing mentioned is "the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" this is your own addition.


"the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" is not my own addition. I advise you to think before you write. They are in the verses. Why don't you actually check?

Once again, you don't KNOW it's literal or not in the hadith. The hadith simply say stuff like "and all the unbelievers shall burn in hell". How do you know it's literal? You don't. It could so easily be metaphorical.


Most use the literal word description and some similitude:


Metaphorical language also uses literal word description.


a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
b. A perceptible likeness.


Next time, please quote ALL of the meanings:

  1. Similarity; resemblance. See synonyms at likeness.
    1. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.
    2. A perceptible likeness.
  2. Archaic. A simile, allegory, or parable.
Yusuf Ali, Shakir,  both used parable.
Khalifa use allegory.

Lots of them used similitude, which is related to the word 'simile'.


Which in the above simply means similar but not exact, this does not open up the way for interpretation since they are not an allegory or parable.

Alegory: a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

something cant be abstract and similar at the same time, clearly you are reading to much into this.



Clearly, you don't even understand what allegory means.
The abstract idea: "that hell is a place without God"
The similitude is the pain that comes without the presence of God. "the flames of Hell".

Originally posted by abuzaid

Idris,

The only person who used allegory is khalifa, and I think this is rashad khalifa who founded that group by name submitters. You know what it means?

Of course i do. I spent a few weeks learning everything about Khalifa and the submitters. They are not so bad. They split in half. One group denies khalifa's absurb self-claimed messengership, the other accepts it.

However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.


About the metaphors.. Do you think that we can take liberty of declaring anything in Quran as metaphorical? If someone comes up and say that revelation and Prophethood is only metaphorical, would you accept it just because it makes more sense to you? or if someone declare God himself is mteaphorical and prove atheism from Quran..

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

The Qur'an actually says in this verse that "the parable/allegory is"... which means it IS a parable/allegory and so on.

may God bless you.




Edited by Idris
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:21am

Originally posted by Idris

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!
excatly, And About Hell its not obvious, this is only you or misguided rashad khalifa understood that way. Just because Hell's description is too harsh you can't declare it as metaphorical.
Originally posted by Idris

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.
No, this is not metaphor. This is just how language is.. You translate this verse in any language, any sane person will understand the meaning of blind without any explanation. You don't have to go and explain to them meaning of blind. Where as about the description of hell, you (or Rahsad Khalifa) have to come up and explain it according to your understanding.

Before we go ahead let me explain..

I take understanding of Quran and Hadith from Sahabah, Tabeen and Taba Tabeen and their followers. In short I consider myself among Ahlus Sunnah. I do not accept if every other person comes with the his own explanation of Deen. If you do not agree with me, than let's start a new thread on the very basis of understanding of Deen instead of description of hell. because we will be debating on same topic with two different beliefs and this won't bring any conclusion to us.

Let Abdul Qudus continues this thread..

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