Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Challenging Questions about Islam Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 7 Next >>
Author Message
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2007 at 9:07am

Originally posted by QheQ

So what I understand so far is that the alleged grammatical errors cannot be discussed now because we do not have a satisfying answer to it.

How do you translate "the Holy Prophet" in Arabic? Is it not "Ar-Raroul"? Is it "an-Nabi?". But Quran used the word "Rasoul" for Muhammad pbuh in "Muhammadur Rasulullah" and when Quran says "And whatever the rasoul give you take and whatever he ask you to evade from, give up." Is the Quran possibly addressing an angel?

Or does it mean that that Muhammad (pbuh) could have been an angel too? Or that the Quran is the word of an angel (and not God or the prophet?). Then in the sense that an angel delivered this word, history seems to show that it was the prophet who was blamed of being a poet/insane man (God forbid). How could this verse then refer to angel?

I may be mistaken but i feel i am unable to understand it which make Quran difficult to understand.

Even so, kindly reflect on what part of the Quran actually seems to validate the Hadith?

Can you just summarise your questions, instead of asking questions within a question and then not knowing what exactly are you asking?

Just list them. As I see, you are asking, answering and asking again!

IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2007 at 11:12am

Originally posted by QheQ

So what I understand so far is that the alleged grammatical errors cannot be discussed now because we do not have a satisfying answer to it. 


 Which error?. Please indicate it and explain the mistake. I joined this topic late so I do not know what went on before this. Please explain completely.


How do you translate "the Holy Prophet" in Arabic? Is it not "Ar-Raroul"? Is it "an-Nabi?". But Quran used the word "Rasoul" for Muhammad pbuh in "Muhammadur Rasulullah" and when Quran says "And whatever the rasoul give you take and whatever he ask you to evade from, give up." Is the Quran possibly addressing an angel?

Muhammad is addressed as a Al-Nabi as well as Ar-Rasool. What do you want to imply by take whatever the Rasool gives you?? Please be explicit. Do not be brief. Quran is not telling that Muhammad (Ar-Rasool) is an angel. Nobody said that.


Or does it mean that that Muhammad (pbuh) could have been an angel too? Or that the Quran is the word of an angel (and not God or the prophet?). Then in the sense that an angel delivered this word, history seems to show that it was the prophet who was blamed of being a poet/insane man (God forbid). How could this verse then refer to angel?

Your objection or question is not understood. Please indicate the verse again to which you are referring. Quran is the word of Allah (Kalaam Allah) revealed to Muhammad s.a.w.s. through the agency of an angel. Indicate the verse please and tell what is bothering you.

I may be mistaken but i feel i am unable to understand it which make Quran difficult to understand.

No problem. I will be very reasonable and will try to explain the matter if I know the answer. 

Even so, kindly reflect on what part of the Quran actually seems to validate the Hadith?

Not understood. Are you looking for some verse which might be supporting the Hadith of the Holy Prophet s.a.w.s??  Yes, I now seem to understand your problem. But you may tell me plainly if that is your question. I will try to ask some one and will also look for such a matter (verse) in the Quran. Thanks. Let us try. But then the question of the grammatical errors in Quran is still another subject. We can leave that for the present please. One thing is good at one time.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 964
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2007 at 9:03am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by QheQ

So what I understand so far is that the alleged grammatical errors cannot be discussed now because we do not have a satisfying answer to it.

I think brother arab has explained this in one of the threads. Today's arabic grammer is derived from Holy Quran, with majority of arab community being muslims and all. Now how can a derivative of something prove its origin to be wrong?

How do you translate "the Holy Prophet" in Arabic? Is it not "Ar-Raroul"? Is it "an-Nabi?". But Quran used the word "Rasoul" for Muhammad pbuh in "Muhammadur Rasulullah" and when Quran says "And whatever the rasoul give you take and whatever he ask you to evade from, give up." Is the Quran possibly addressing an angel?

The word Prophet is meaning of Nabi, while Messenger is that of Rasul. I have taken this passage from some where which beautifully expalins the difference. A Prophet (Nabi) is one to whom Allaah reveals (yanbiuhu) something, and he passes on what Allaah has reveals to him. If he is sent with that to those who go against the commandments of Allaah, to convey a message from Allaah to them, then he is a Messenger. But if he follows a shareeah that came before him, and is not himself sent to anyone to convey the message from Allaah to them, then he is a Prophet and not a Messenger (al-Nubuwwaat, p. 255).

One thing everyone keeps saying is to understand any ayaah of Holy Quran, you have to look into context of its revelation. The Ayaah of Holy Quran is 59:7] Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil): this being ayaah of Surah Hashr. Surah Hashr is also called Surah Bani An-nadir as it was revealed about banu nadir, a jew tribe. So if you read all of the Surah, it is very easy to understand for whom the word 'Messenger' is used.

Or does it mean that that Muhammad (pbuh) could have been an angel too?

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam to tell people, '18:110] Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. and there are so many other verses which tells us of Sayyidina Muhammad being a human not an angel.

Or that the Quran is the word of an angel (and not God or the prophet?). Then in the sense that an angel delivered this word, history seems to show that it was the prophet who was blamed of being a poet/insane man (God forbid). How could this verse then refer to angel?

Now what you refering here is total different Ayaat of a different Surah. [Shakir 81:15] But nay! I swear by the stars,
[Shakir 81:16] That run their course (and) hide themselves,
[Shakir 81:17] And the night when it departs,
[Shakir 81:18] And the morning when it brightens,
[Shakir 81:19] Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger,
[Shakir 81:20] The processor of strength, having an honorable place with the Lord of the Dominion,
[Shakir 81:21] One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust.
[Shakir 81:22] And your companion is not gone mad.
[Shakir 81:23] And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon.
This is a makkan surah and when leaders of Quraysh saw that it is getting harder for them to stop Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam. They started spreading rumours about him of being mad when he said that he receives revelation through an Angel. So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is telling that what Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam is reciting to you, these are word of an honoured messenger, in this case an angel. And we get that it is not his own words with the usage of word 'messenger' as messenger is always bringing someone else's message. And we know this verse in not talking about Muhammad being the messenger through the follow up ayaat. As first they talk about this honoured messenger being seen on the horizon and then mention of seen by 'your companion'. Because thats what Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam was to them before the start of revelation, a trustworthy companion.


I may be mistaken but i feel i am unable to understand it which make Quran difficult to understand.

Brother to understand Holy Quran you need to read its different translations and then tafaasir. But if you dont want to trust anyone then you could try to learn arabic first and know the meaning. To truely understand words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala you have to know the history of revelation and many other things. Thats why in my previous post i said that you should contact a scholar, maybe that will make things clear for you.

Even so, kindly reflect on what part of the Quran actually seems to validate the Hadith?

I will try to answer this in next post inshaAllah coz i need to find the ayaat first. 

Wassalam



Edited by fatima
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 964
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2007 at 9:38am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Say: "obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allahs Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messengers duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)."  
(   , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #54)

O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad SAW) while you are hearing.  
(   , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #20)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with one another) lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allah is with those who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).  
(   , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #46)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.  
(   , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #132)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

O you who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) and render not vain your deeds.  
(   , Muhammad, Chapter #47, Verse #33)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (  &# 1575;  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #59)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), (   , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #92)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

So fear Allah and adjust all matters of difference among you, and obey Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), if you are believers.  
(   , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #1)

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->

and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.  
(   , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #71)

It is one of basic islamic rule that in worship you are told of what to do because it is limited information while in general life you are told of what not to do as majority of things are permissible.

Holy Quran tells us about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyahi wassalam 68:4] And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality. Another place Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is saying, '3:31] Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL. So if anybody is looking to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala you first look into Holy Quran to find out your answers. You get from Holy Quran that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam had a great character and to get salvation we need to follow him.

If you look at your life, one of the first things you would think about is prayer. Does Holy Quran tells you how to pray? It only tells you about position of Qiyyam, ruku' and sujud. What do you read in different position, you mention an ayaah of glorifying Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala been read in salah. Ok if we take that then it is our understanding, so next step, to be fair to yourself you should be judging your understanding. Read Holy Quran and try to understand it without the conext of history. Then read it with the right context and judge on how many places your understanding failed you. Apply the same ratio to performing of salah, do you really want to take that much chance with pleasing your Lord.

Now Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, 'The Prophet has a higher claim on the believers than [they have on] their own selves." (33:6) and He says in another place, 'He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them." (4:80) In this particular ayaah its not just follow/obey Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and His Messenger, it says whoever follows the messenger has followed the Lord. We know there must have been a way in which Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alyhi wassalam prayed. So we look for the ways to find those resources and thats when the sunnah and ahadith come into practise.

Now if you are not sure whether you trust that whole process. Again you turn to Holy Quran, where we told that our early generations are better than the latter ones. Those early generations were the ones who understood the need of collecting ahadith and compiled them. [Shakir 56:10] And the foremost are the foremost,
[Shakir 56:11] These are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah),
[Shakir 56:12] In the gardens of bliss.
[Shakir 56:13] A numerous company from among the first,
[Shakir 56:14] And a few from among the latter.
Those ahadith and sunnah have a very sound chain of narrations, there are quite few ahadith collections. What you find in one collection, you would find the same hadith in another one with different chain. Fourteen centuries have produced thousands and thousands of scholars and every one of them believed and followed ahadith to follow religion properly. If you are doubting their base that mean you doubting what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is saying about this ummah that we are best of ummah raised.

Again in the end you have to see everything in context of relating matters, you cant pick one ayaah and prove it this way or the other. Hope this helps, you dont need to reply to these posts as you have said that you are short on time. I have just tried to explain to you the basics of my understandings.

wassalam



Edited by fatima
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
QheQ
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 05 April 2007
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Quote QheQ Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 4:08pm
NOTE: My problem is less the availability of time than soooo many answers to my questions. This roughly feels like facing a storm of pebbles which is not fair. I hope you'll try some way out to let me keep in touch. Also, kindly note that I am trying to be as sincere as possible. Remarks for me like "your ignorance" and "lack of knowledge" hurt me. Well, I try to stay calm. I'd like such remarks to be supported with answers to such questions as "what is my ignorance?" and "please tell me where I am wrong and how." Thanks.

What I understand from most responses is that

1. The validity of Hadith is being supported by Quraanic verses saying "Ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasool".
2. The word "rasoul" in 69:38-43 does not mean "prophet"

For the first statement, what I understand is that the Quran is saying "follow Allah" AND "Follow the rasoul". This does not seem to make Hadith a valid "source". As far as the source of guidance is concerned, 45:2-9 declare that the source of this guidance is Quran ALONE.

As far as the second statement is concerned, if "rasoul" in surah 69 doesn't mean prophet, why does it necessarily mean "prophet" in "ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasoul"?

For further clarity, please see 8:13 in which Quran says "Atiullaha wa atiur-rasoulu wa laa tawallau anhu". In this ayah, "anhu" is a singular expression which clearly appears to make "atiullah" and "atiur-rasoul" the one and the same thing.

Again, I don't claim I am necessarily right. If I am wrong, please, please correct me.

Regards
IP IP Logged
QheQ
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 05 April 2007
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Quote QheQ Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 4:14pm
And I can see clearly that the Quran says how to pray. In Al-Aala, Quran says: "Qad AflaHa mann Tadhakka. Wa Dhakarasma rabbihi faSalla". So "Salaah" is simply the rememberance of one's RAB. This is how I understand it.
IP IP Logged
QheQ
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 05 April 2007
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Quote QheQ Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2007 at 4:17pm
And last but not least... Wouldn't it be wiser to regard only Quran as the source of Islam and ahadith only as a valuable historic record which may be accepted ONLY IF it is in line with the Quran and NOT on the basis of trust in the people who narrated them?
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2007 at 3:39am

 

 QheQ, you have appeared after a long time. Perhaps your did not read my post in which it was clearly pointed out that the source of Islam is :

1. The Quran,   2. The Sunnah (the practice of the holy prophet)     3.  The Hadith (the sayings of the prophet  recorded in the books)

All these three are important in that order. hadith is very important for understanding the rligion of Islam. But you have now come back and you are saying that Quran should be taken as the source.. And Hadith should be kept as a valuable historic record. You are right that any Hadith which is not in accordance with Quran should not be accepted.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 7 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com