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Interfaith Dialogue
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QheQ
 
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Quote QheQ Replybullet Topic: Challenging Questions about Islam
    Posted: 05 April 2007 at 8:15am
One of the first things I would like to know before becoming a do-or-die Muslim is what the true source of sharia'h is, Quran? Quran and Hadith? or Quran and Ijtihad?
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2007 at 9:17pm

Originally posted by QheQ

One of the first things I would like to know before becoming a do-or-die Muslim is what the true source of sharia'h is, Quran? Quran and Hadith? or Quran and Ijtihad?

Quran and the Sunnah are the primary texts used as the source of the Shariah.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote number41 Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 1:22am

As per my understanding,…from the Islamic perspectives, the ideal of the shari’ah is derived from the key sources of knowledge---the Quran and the Sunnah and from secondary sources such as Ijtihad (personal opinion) and Ijma, (unanimous agreement by Muslim Scholars).

 

The Quran and the Sunnah provides the core principles and the framework from which man has also been encouraged to use his reasoning. In this respect Muslims are encouraged to exercise rational thought through Ijtihad, ijma and shura (consultation).

 

Since reasoning and experience are two universal sources of knowledge, they are classified as natural law.  It is this exercise of rational thought borne from the foundation provided by the Quran and the Sunnah that has and will continue to generate the shari’ah dynamism for Muslim community.

'When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Path becomes clear' – Rumi
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Quote QheQ Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 4:23am
Kindly note that I am not a QURAN ONLY sectarian. Yet, I need good answers about Islam. If I get them, I hope to become a devout Muslim.

This, I think, is the main problem with the authenticity of Islam. In Bukhari, (Zuhd), a Hadith is quoted, saying that the Prophet "forbad" his Sahabah to write anything from him except Quran. I know there is a latter part of the Hadith inferring that the truth from the prophet was allowed to be written. But in Bukhari, Kitabul Wasiyyah, Ayesha narrates that there is no Wasiyyah from the prophet EXCEPT QURAN. If this doesn't make things clear, let's see what Quran says:
Translation: "Indeed this (Quran?) is the Saying of the Rasool e Kareem"
And Quran describes itself in 12:111 as "Detailed, to be thought into, not a self-made Hadith"
In the presence of these references, how can a Muslim claim Hadith to be a source of Islam. (Note, Hadith was not revealed with Quran. It was rather reported to have been collected by Muhadditheen, over 200 years after the prophet passed away!)
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Quote QheQ Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 4:43am
This is where Quran says that it is the "Qaul-e-Rasool" (69:40)

Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa Raib?

Why do Muslims, in response to questionning of the grammatical errors in Quran say: "Its eloquence is so High that we cannot reach it?"

Most sincerely, do you think it is the right answer?
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 9:22am

Originally posted by QheQ

Kindly note that I am not a QURAN ONLY sectarian. Yet, I need good answers about Islam. If I get them, I hope to become a devout Muslim.

Since you claim Pakistan as your place of residence, I find it at least "puzzeling" that you have not been able to find your answers.



This, I think, is the main problem with the authenticity of Islam. In Bukhari, (Zuhd), a Hadith is quoted, saying that the Prophet "forbad" his Sahabah to write anything from him except Quran. I know there is a latter part of the Hadith inferring that the truth from the prophet was allowed to be written. But in Bukhari, Kitabul Wasiyyah, Ayesha narrates that there is no Wasiyyah from the prophet EXCEPT QURAN.

I am only aware of one hadith that is sound and makes reference to "not writing" hadith.

First lets us take the "responsible" context and derive a plausable interpretation that follows all of the rules of "the charity principle" which is a principle in rhetoric which states in basic terms that we are to render or interpret a writing assuming the most reasonable "interpretation (not to force a rendering that assumes something absurd)".

a) There are hadiths that permit the writing of hadith

b) Companions and their followers and their followers wrote and transmitted hadith without incident and point of serious contention

We have one authenticated narrative that speaks of a prohibition of writing hadith. 

Don’t write what I say. Whoever has written anything I have

said other than the Qur’an must erase it. But relate from me:

there is no harm in that. And whoever deliberately lies in order

to falsely attribute something to me, then let him prepare his

seat in the Fire." (Muslim)

Given a) and b), and the wording of the hadith, whether we invoke Occam's Razor (entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity) and the Charity principle (rational accomidation principle), we arrive at two rational conclusions:

1) A prohibition to write on the same page as the quran is written on

or,

2) It is a prohibition to write hadith but later abrrogated by the various hadiths that permit the writing and copying of hadith.

But the hadith cannot be used to make a conclusive argument that the hadith are invalid.

 

  

 If this doesn't make things clear, let's see what Quran says:
Translation: "Indeed this (Quran?) is the Saying of the Rasool e Kareem"

 

You will have to further argue or explain your use of this as an evidence. If the verese was as clear as you think it might be to prove your unexplained conclusion, then we would not be having this discussion. (everyone would see it)

 
And Quran describes itself in 12:111 as "Detailed, to be thought into, not a self-made Hadith"

This does not invalidate the hadith of the prophet (saw). In other words, it does not offer anything in the verse which allows you to extend its meaning to conclude there is a problem with the Hadith.

 

 
In the presence of these references, how can a Muslim claim Hadith to be a source of Islam. (Note, Hadith was not revealed with Quran. It was rather reported to have been collected by Muhadditheen, over 200 years after the prophet passed away!)

I find no solid rational reason based upon what you have provided that would argue that I am wrong in my worship. Rather, it would appear that you have buried many unargued assumptions into them which simply does not allow you or me or anyone to deduce that Islam, as practiced by Muslims for the last 1200 years, have been wrong.

You final statement is simply fallacious, we have written narratives (extant) that date from a student of a companion. The collection was of narrative that had already been in place, so collecting something does not make them "untrue".

 

"Lo! It may well be that my hadith reaches a man who is

reclining on his luxurious bed, and he replies, ‘We have

between us the Book of Allah: we permit whatever it permits

and we forbid whatever it forbids,’ but in truth, whatever the

Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah has forbidden."

(Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, Darimi)

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Quote Arab Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 9:24am

My dear QheQ. The Quran can not have grammatical mistakes because Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran. So you derive the grammer from the Quran and then from the grammer you derived from the Quran you say there are grammatical mistakes in the Quran based on the Quran, thats impossible. These are ies spread by people who want to make Muslims who are not Arab doubt the Quran especially since many of them dont know that Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

La raiib means no doubt. The prophet said dont write down what I say because he was afraid it would get mixed with the Quran and the Quran and his sayings would be one and people wouldnt know the difference. Nottice he forbade his sahaba, his sayings wrent written by the sahaba but later on.

The sources of sharia are the Quran, the sunnah (hadiths) and ijtihad.

 

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Quote number41 Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2007 at 4:49pm

QheQ wrote: I hope to become a devout Muslim. ....Why do Muslims, in response to questionning of the grammatical errors in Quran say: "Its eloquence is so High that we cannot reach it?"..... Also, what does it exactly mean tha Quran is Laa Raib?

Sincerely this is my answers....
We need to realize humility,…we are mere human beings who are accorded limited understanding of the Divine. ‘All Knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you O men’ (Quran 17:85) and therefore we should not insist to completely know the complete interpretation in revelation and tradition. ‘We believe in the Book (Quran); the whole of it is from our Lord’ (Quran 3:7)

La raib means 'no doubt (therein)'. You will find the phrase in the Holy Quran in Surah Al-Baqarah (Chapter of The Cow) in the second verse: [2.2] This Book (Quran), there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

'When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Path becomes clear' – Rumi
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