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Message Icon Topic: It’s gay rights laws that are intolerant,(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2007 at 2:19pm

Originally posted by crasss



The men in Darfur are Christians, and therefore serfs, and therefore inherently unable to protect their women and children.

Only half are Christian, the other half is Muslim.  If you ask me, it has less to do with religion and more with culture.  Neither Religion teaches that kind of barbaric cruelty.  Neither faith would allow those kind of actions.  Being Christian and being Muslim has alot more to do with actions than labels.  I've known more people who've claimed a faith than I would ever really say followed their faith.

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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2007 at 3:03pm

I had to laugh.....

Funny how the topic started out discussing gays, then gay rights, then AIDsm then AIDs epidemic, then Darfur Sudan, then serfs...BTW why call unarmed Christians Serfs?

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crasss
 
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2007 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Angela

while building grand palaces with oil money they are so eager to get from the pockets of the American Serf?

By the way, the American serf is not paying any longer for oil supplies, but borrowing the money at gunpoint. That problem results from the fact that the American serf does not produce anything anybody needs anywhere.
Originally posted by Angela

I don't have to worry about being silenced by censorship ministries.

The situation is degrading rapidly in the US. The population is now already generally under surveillance. Censorship is the next step.
Originally posted by Angela

I can write political blogs and vote against the leadership.

Ha ha. You can vote for the republicrats or else for the demolicans. Whichever way you vote, you know that they will come up with yet another series of new laws that nobody asked for. Why are the American serfs so fond of new laws? Aren't there already enough new laws in the US, to satisfy the demand in new laws for the next five centuries?
Originally posted by Angela

Tell me one middle eastern nation that has those freedoms.

The freedom to chose the people who will restrict your freedom with new laws ... What kind of freedom is that?
Originally posted by Angela

One...where you don't have to worry about your freedom to change what you see wrong in the government.

How do you get rid of people who want to make new laws to restrict your freedom? You have to abolish the entire system for that.
Originally posted by Angela

It is a double edged sword.  Since I have the right to lobby against our unconditional support of Israel and their oppression of the Palestinians.  It does give the right of others to do the opposite.

And the ones who have the most money will win. It is very profitable for one group of people to support Israel, and it doesn't cost much to anybody else that the Palestinians pay the bill. So, what do you think will happen?

Another problem is, of course, the fact that Christians buy in to the idea that particular races are superior to other ones. That is simply part of any religion worshipping pictures. So, Israel is better than Palestine, if only, on racist grounds.
Originally posted by Angela

We are in a constant war with pop culture and our children.  Teaching them modesty, chastity and honesty.  Teaching them faith in God ABOVE what society accepts.

It won't work. You have to enforce this, and if you do that, the government will enforce YOU. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, or Jew, it doesn't make any difference. The laws of Satan prevail in the US.
Originally posted by Angela

I have to teach my children that they have moral responsibilities as set forth by God Almighty.

At the same time, your religion says that you must obey the government, which is now run by Satan. So, your religion instills obedience to Satan.
Originally posted by Angela

They are men and women, they are to be chaste and faithful even if that means they are unpopular to "cool" society.  They are to be modest.  They must get married if possible, have children if possible and follow the laws that God has commanded.

...and that the government has commanded. But the government does not follow the laws that God has commanded. So, now you are hosed. That blanket instruction in Christianity to obey the government, now forces all of you and especially your children to worship Satan, his music and his movies; and then the chastity and faith go out of the window.
Originally posted by Angela

Israfil calls it bigotry and discrimination to be against open acceptance of homosexuality.  I call it obedience.

You are right. Unfortunately, your religion also leaves you no choice. The day they vote laws that outlaw "homophobia", you will have to throw away your bible, because it is "homophobic".

There is a little, dirty secret concerning the American revolution: it was seriously unchristian. Christianity bans serfs from insurging against their tyrants. Your religion mandates that the American serfs be obedient to the English Lords. The US is built on that contradiction. It promotes a religion that forbids its very creation and existence.

1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

2. A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

Look at what un-serf-like and anti-Christian things the American serfs wrote. They just knew that this Christian religion was a threat to their freedom. They were simply lucky that the English Lords backed off, or they would have had to do the same as the French revolutionaries, and go after the Christian clergy.

The belief system that caused all these problems, and that they wrote these things against, is still there. So, the entire problem just re-emerges.

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crasss
 
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2007 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Israfil

BTW why call unarmed Christians Serfs?

Being unarmed, while someone else is armed, inevitably turns you into a serf. Christian religion mandates this: either you are a Lord, or else you are a serf.

The Lords are armed, and the serfs are not. That is the natural basis for their power. A slightly more complicated variation, consists in arming some serfs, disarming the other ones, and then you pay the armed ones to oppress the unarmed ones.

In other words, the power of money simply evaporates, if everybody is armed and determined to use their arms.

Anybody who is unarmed, while others are, simply fails to his religious duty. The Quran clearly states that it is your obligation to defend the laws of the One God. How can you do that, if you are unarmed?

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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2007 at 8:07pm
Well you....nevermind.
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 8:24am

crasss,

You seriously have no understanding of Christianity or of serfdom.  I think you confused European Society with Christian Theology.

I think you need to step back and separate them.  Just like separating Middle Eastern Culture with the teachings of Islam.  It can be difficult because after 1400 years they have become interlaced.  But there are distinctions to be made.  The same is with Western Culture and Christianity.  When you went off on the pollution of Christianity by the Romans, you were correct.  But, it is natural human failures that you are thinking are theological doctrine. 

Jew and Gentile... the big debate by the Apostles was whether Christianity was for some or all.  The same thing was addressed by the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) in his Last Sermon.  Humans have a natural tendency to place their own race above another.  Tutsi vs Hutu, Aryan vs Non Aryan, Chinese vs Japanese, Arab vs Non Arab.

This also can go towards ideologies.  Democracy vs Communism.  Republics versus True Democracies.  Socialism vs Communism.  Monarchy vs Oligarchy.  Theocracy vs Secular Government.

People are naturally arrogant.  You call the leadership of the US Satan.  (With Bush, I almost have to agree...less than a 1/3 of the country likes him)  But, you cannot see fault with any of the Middle Eastern or Central Asian rulership?????  Which of these countries to do you consider an Ideal Islamic State?  Caliphs are to be fair and just.  I don't see that in Tehran, Islamabad, Amman, Damascas or Riyadh.  Which of these governments would you wish to lead your people back to prosperity and peace?

The US cannot do it.....we are too wrapped up in our own ideas of perfect government.  Which doesn't work for every culture.  I told my husband after I started learning about Islam that the US needs to pull out of Iraq.  Culturally and religiously, Republican Democracy (representative government) will not work in a tribal and sectarian society that's perfect form of government is a Theocratic Monarchy.  When al-Maliki fired the successful Sunni generals that were pursuing the Shia Death Squads, I just looked at my husband and said, "Told you so."

Crasss, if you read the Bible, Torah, and Apocrypha.  The teachings of Christ in no way say you must obey your government.  However, killing is still a sin.  Thou Shall Not Kill.  Kinda plain.  A civilized society doesn't walk into a neighborhood and killed twenty men because they belong to the opposite political party.  This country is verging on another change like what happened in the 1960s.  The government has waged an unjust war and the people are stirring.  The next election will seriously determine the course of the war and foreign policies.  Yes, there are only two parties, but in those candidates, there are a variety of opinions and methodologies.  Republican Democracies are cyclical...  periods of high corruption and house cleaning.  If you studied our history you would see that.  Men of corruption like Andrew Jackson, followed years later by men of integrity like Abraham Lincoln.  Its and up and down....right now we're in the down....a very low...pathetic, needless down.  But I have confidence that it will go back up.

Göring:Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

  • In an interview with Gilbert in Göring's jail cell during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials (18 April 1946),
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crasss
 
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 8:58am
Originally posted by Angela

You seriously have no understanding of Christianity or of serfdom.  I think you confused European Society with Christian Theology. I think you need to step back and separate them.

Teaching the kids to "praise the Lords!", "give thanks to the Lords!", "we love the almighty Lords!", while the guy who exploits the village is also called a Lord. There is an undeniable pattern here ...
Originally posted by Angela

Humans have a natural tendency to place their own race above another.  Tutsi vs Hutu, Aryan vs Non Aryan, Chinese vs Japanese, Arab vs Non Arab.

I agree. But religion should not endorse or reinforce this tendency.
Originally posted by Angela

Which of these countries to do you consider an Ideal Islamic State?

I don't expect too much from any state. As long as they do not violate the laws of the One God, and do not forbid what the One God has permitted, I can't actually be bothered too much with who exactly is running the show.
Originally posted by Angela

Caliphs are to be fair and just.

Caliphs are not to be too powerful.
Originally posted by Angela

I don't see that in Tehran, Islamabad, Amman, Damascas or Riyadh.  Which of these governments would you wish to lead your people back to prosperity and peace?

At this time, the only thing any government can do, is to sit out the storm, and hope this deluge of western filth does not drag too many people along with it, down the drain.

Given the circumstances, these governments are not doing too bad. It could be a lot worse. They are keeping quite a few of the bad ideas, the devilish movies and satanic music, out. The population is apparently learning to say "no" to all of this.

They still got to do some more work to keep the political pressure and military threats at bay. The Iraqi, Afghan, Somali, and Palestian resistance is helpful here.

These countries will define their own way to what they see as "prosperity". That does not need to include gas-guzzling SUVs and credit card debts for all.
Originally posted by Angela

The teachings of Christ in no way say you must obey your government.

It is not Jesus who came up with that idea, but emperor Constantine.

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Angela
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2007 at 10:38am

Originally posted by crasss

  Teaching the kids to "praise the Lords!", "give thanks to the Lords!", "we love the almighty Lords!", while the guy who exploits the village is also called a Lord. There is an undeniable pattern here ...

Well, when you are talking about translations, it does get messy.  But, first off.  Its the difference between THE LORD and Lord....There is only ONE ALMIGHTY.  Its Praise the Lord... and that's really more of an evangelical thing.  But seriously, what's the difference between Christians teaching their children to Praise the LORD and those who teach children to yell "Allah Akbar" when a bomb goes off in a market place killing not soldiers but innocent people.  Its a wrong that ills all societies.

 



Originally posted by Angela

Humans have a natural tendency to place their own race above another.  Tutsi vs Hutu, Aryan vs Non Aryan, Chinese vs Japanese, Arab vs Non Arab.

I agree. But religion should not endorse or reinforce this tendency.


Christianity doesn't support this.  Where does it support this?  I thinkt he whole Good Samaritan story was to intentionally teach against this tendency.  Where in the BIBLE do you find that one is superior to another that isn't a historical accounting?  All the crap about the children of Ham or the decendents of Cain is the false philosophies of men, not supported by the Bible no matter how hard you try.  Again, this is the failings of men, not of the religion.  I have seen on several muslim boards complaints by Black Muslim sisters that when the Black Muslim brothers ask the Imams and Sheiks to find them a wife, the Middle Eastern born Imam finds them an Arab wife instead of matching them with one of the black single sisters.  Its a human failing.  Its not the failing of the Faith.  Islam is one of the least racist religions, yet it still happens.  Only God is perfect.



Given the circumstances, these governments are not doing too bad. It could be a lot worse. They are keeping quite a few of the bad ideas, the devilish movies and satanic music, out. The population is apparently learning to say "no" to all of this.

Nooo, not bad at all.  Gasing their own people, starving children in the streets picking garbage to survive, women beaten and killed by their spouses without any protections under the law.  Children without education while leaders drive western cars, dine on caviar and kobe beef and sleep on silk bed sheets.  But, the people are safe from music and movies.  I'm sure that hungry child is thrilled that he has no food, but he doesn't have to worry about the hedonism and excesses of Hollywood. 

Originally posted by Angela

The teachings of Christ in no way say you must obey your government.

It is not Jesus who came up with that idea, but emperor Constantine.

EXACTLY!  Yet you insist on blaming it on Christianity.  I grew up in an Eastern Orthodox Church....I converted to Mormonism.  But, I have never been attracted to the Western Churches.  The ones established by Paul and his successors.  The Roman Empire, Dark Ages, Inquisitors, and restrictions of thought and progress.

The model to be looked at is Moorish Spain.  Jew, Christian and Muslim lived in harmony.  Education was at its height.  However, there are no governments in the Middle East that are prepared to offer their people that kind of freedom.  They will use perversions of Islam to keep their people from understanding the freedoms that the Quran teaches.  They will use perversions of Christianity and Judaism to make their people afraid of the other Peoples of the Book.  And they will use the sad reality of a disintegrating West to keep their people in poverty and fear. 

They aren't holding the West at Bay, the leaders are enjoying the benefits of the West.  They are however, using the screen of piety to keep their people from attaining the heights of Islamic Society as in the times of the Moors and the Great Caliphs of the Middle East.

Corruption and Greed are possible to all, doesn't matter religion or race.  And before you Blame the west and call us Satan again.

Remember, every man is responsible for his own sins, there is no original sin or savior in Islam.  If the Devil Tempts you, you are responsible to say no.  The sin is no the temptation, its giving into that temptation.  So, if Muslims blow each other up rather than fight the invaders, the sin is theirs.  If Arab leaders oppress their people, the sin is theres.  Only they are responsible for their own actions.

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