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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: SHIA SUNNI, MALEKI, SHAFI, HANAFI, WAHABI(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 04 June 2007 at 6:55am
4:115 But as for him who, after guidance has been vouchsafed to him, cuts himself off from the Apostle and follows a path other than that of the believers - him shall We leave unto that which he himself has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell: and how evil a journeys end!

 



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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 04 June 2007 at 7:12am
Originally posted by aka2x2

Shias do not dispute the Quran. Anyone who claims otherwise is wrong by ignorance or malice. He should fear Allah (SWT) and not accuse fellow Muslims unjustly

I firmly believe that some shia consider the existing Quran is corrupted one and actual Quran is with Imam Mehdi Ghayeb and he will present it when he comes out from a cave just before end time.

However, I don't want to make this thread shia-Sunni debate. So, I won't present any proof, because if I present any proofs, many other issues like, Companions, Imamat, Bada, Muttu'ah, mourning, cursing of Sahabah, cursing mothers of believes will come into discussion, which is my last priority.

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aka2x2
 
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bullet Posted: 05 June 2007 at 6:58am

Abuzaid

Your colorful posting leads one to conclude that Shias are heretics and deserve hell fire. Yet you are very tolerant of the Wahabis and advise others to discuss present instead of past.

 

Alhamd-O-Lellah imperfect humans are not the final judge and Allah is. Meanwhile, I remind you of the geographic location of UAE. Hateful rhetoric is not always cost free and bombs do not distinguish between Sunni and Shia. The sectarian violence that started in Iraq could spread throughout the region.

 

Please stop pouring fuel on this fire.

Otherwise

Go in peace and Allah-Maak


Respectfully
aka2x2
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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 05 June 2007 at 11:58am

Please don't put words in my mouth..

Did I ever said that all shia deserved hell? But yes many shia are heretic.

You said

Yet you are very tolerant of the Wahabis

Definitely I am very tolerant of Wahabis.. specifically as compared to shia.

You said

Hateful rhetoric is not always cost free and bombs do not distinguish between Sunni and Shia. The sectarian violence that started in Iraq could spread throughout the region

Now, tell me who is playing rhetorics?? Did I ever called for violence?

Islam does not call for mixing truth and evil, but call for seperation of evil from truth and thus exposing evil. Tolerance does not mean that you start compromising on very basics of Deen.

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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 06 June 2007 at 7:16am

 

 A lot has been said in this thread already. It is sad news that the Shias are far away from the good well known principles for the Ummah. There is a long list of disagreement with them. But this is not the place and time to discuss those things. We would very much have loved the Shias to come around to some settlement. But their view was that let the Sunnis and other Muslims, all love and respect ahle bait. But we (Shias) will never respect the three great Khalifas. That was their opinion. And as I said that there is a long list of disagreements, it is better to keep that box closed now.

I am of Sunni aqueedah. I know quite a lot about the Wahabi system too, their history etc...  I may write it all in next post, Insha Allah.

 



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If any one is bad some one must suffer
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 06 June 2007 at 8:52am

 

 In continuation of my last post:

 Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab lived about 300 years ago. He started a movement to improve the beliefs of the muslims and to bring them closed to Tauheed and to keep them away from any Bad works. He was supported by the Saudi Shaikh of that time. The bond was strengthened through some marriage.

Since then the co-operation continued till today. The followers of Muhamamd bin Abdul Wahhab were called Wahhabis by their opponents. They were active in gaining the kingdom of Arabia for the Saud family (Abdul Aziz AleSaud), specially during attack on Taif , Saudi Arabia. I am not sure what the did against the Turks. But Turks were occupying the land in the east Arabia, Al Hasa, Dammam. The Saudis liberated that area from the Turks in 1913 A.D. At thattime nobody knew that there was lot of oil (black gold) underground.

The movement for the revival of Islam spread to India too. Its center was in Putnah, near Calcutta. There were many learned pious persons attached to the movement. In the late 18th century, in India, famous Wahhabis were Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Mian Nazir Hussain Dehlavi and M. Hussain batalawi. All of them were faithful to the british government.

The Ahle Sunnah noted some bad points of the Wahhabis. I will list them later. The name Wahhabis was given to the followers of the new movement by the people, by the Ahle Sunnah. The sect people did not like that name. So, they requested the british government to pass an order that they should never be called Wahhabis. Instead, they liked to be called Ahle Hadith. That order was passed by the government in their favor.

I have described some part of their history. More in next post later....

 

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 06 June 2007 at 9:09am

 

 Now, about the main sects amongst Muslims: They are:

 1.  Ahle Sunnah.    2. Ahle Tashiah (Shias)   3. Ahle Hadith

 4. Ahle Quran.

 The Ahle Sunnah believe in the Quran and the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. They also believe in the hadith (sayings) of the prophet s.a.w.s.

 2. The ahle Tashiah are Shias of Ali. They have thir own beliefs.

 3. The Ahle Hadith are those who were being called the Wahhabis. They try to keep away from the saints and their Muqaabir (grave worship). They try to stress too muchon strict following of the Shariyat. They say the Muhammad was a man like all of us. That he did not know the Ghaib (unseen).

 They try to follow the books of Hadith i.e. sayings as recorded in the books of Hadith, Bukhari and Muslims etc. They give too much importance to the sayings (Hadith), more than the acts acts and the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s.

 There are trouble creators in every field. Some of thee Ahle Hadith (Wahhabis) give more importance to Hadith (sayings) than the verses of the Quran. (believe me please). That is could be called an extreme case only. But it has to be mentioned and to be avoided. They say that Hadith can take charge of the verses and meanings of the verses of Quran.

 4. The Ahle Quran are those who give more importance to the Quran. They say that Quran is enough for us. They do not like to follow any Sunnah or Hadith. But when under pressure, they deny anything against hadith and Sunanh.

 That was a brief reference about the four main schools of thought that every one of us will meet some time in our dialogue on the internet too.  More in next post.....

 If any friend has disagreement, then he/she may please advise me... and help all friends here.

 

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 06 June 2007 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 In continuation of my last post:

 Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab lived about 300 years ago. He started a movement to improve the beliefs of the muslims and to bring them closed to Tauheed and to keep them away from any Bad works. He was supported by the Saudi Shaikh of that time. The bond was strengthened through some marriage.

 

This is over simplifying history:

1) There has been no real proof to suggest that there was anything wrong with the Tawheed of thousands of Muslims that were declared kafir and killed by he and his followers. 

2) His support from the Saud family was nothing more than a way to utilize this khawarij type movement to gain power. To try and over simplify the actual fitnah that cam about from this man and movement should not be sugar coated.

 

 

Since then the co-operation continued till today.

Another over simplification.

The sect was divided into two groups by the ruling authority.

Group one is put on the government payroll. They give the fatwas that the government needs.

Group two are those who feel the government is not strict enough.

 

 The followers of Muhamamd bin Abdul Wahhab were called Wahhabis by their opponents. They were active in gaining the kingdom of Arabia for the Saud family (Abdul Aziz AleSaud), specially during attack on Taif , Saudi Arabia. I am not sure what the did against the Turks. But Turks were occupying the land in the east Arabia, Al Hasa, Dammam. The Saudis liberated that area from the Turks in 1913 A.D. At thattime nobody knew that there was lot of oil (black gold) underground.

1) The movement spanned the last 200 years of the Ottoman period. The initial rebellion was to throw out the Ottoman Turks who were the acting Caliphs of the time, in the name of purifying the land.

2) The British finished off the Ottoman Turks with the use of these bandits and helped establish the house of Saud, along with oil rights in the land for BP.

Your above explanation tried to erroneously mash the entire period into a decade. This is not accurate.

 

The movement for the revival of Islam spread to India too. Its center was in Putnah, near Calcutta. There were many learned pious persons attached to the movement. In the late 18th century, in India, famous Wahhabis were Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Mian Nazir Hussain Dehlavi and M. Hussain batalawi. All of them were faithful to the british government.

You are trying to make a broad generalization.

The wahabi movement has only had "local" successes outside Saudi Arabia, usually in areas where the locals have had no traditional Islamic education. The "wahabi" movement has never produced a single, solid, reputable scholar who has been accepted by mainstream Sunnis, across the Sunni spectrum. I do not doubt they are pious, but that is irrelevant, as I know men who are pious due to Judaism, but their piousness does not make their belief correct. 

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
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