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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: SHIA SUNNI, MALEKI, SHAFI, HANAFI, WAHABI(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 02 June 2007 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by sulooni

SHOULD SOME MUSLIMS DISCRIMINATE AGAINST OTHER MUSLIMS ?

Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi and Hanbali are Ahlus Sunnah..

Wahabi is a vague term and carries different meaning for different places and people.

Shia are not Ahlus Sunnah, they consider source of Deen as Ah Al bayt and Quran only. Some may dispute Quran also.

Ahlus Sunnah are those..

1. Who Take Quran as Source of Deen,

2. Hadith as Source of Deen..

3. Explain Deen as per Understanding of Sahabah, Tabieen and Taba Tabieen.

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Abu Mujahid
 
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bullet Posted: 03 June 2007 at 4:46am
Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by sulooni

SHOULD SOME MUSLIMS DISCRIMINATE AGAINST OTHER MUSLIMS ?

Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi and Hanbali are Ahlus Sunnah..

Wahabi is a vague term and carries different meaning for different places and people.

Shia are not Ahlus Sunnah, they consider source of Deen as Ah Al bayt and Quran only. Some may dispute Quran also.

Ahlus Sunnah are those..

1. Who Take Quran as Source of Deen,

2. Hadith as Source of Deen..

3. Explain Deen as per Understanding of Sahabah, Tabieen and Taba Tabieen.

 

Bro Abuzaid,

 

Well said and may Allah reward you khair.

 

 

Abu Mujahid

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number41
 
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bullet Posted: 03 June 2007 at 7:25am

Bro Abuzaid said : The wahabi is a term created by British in subcontinent to slander people who call for pure tawheed and elimination of bid'ah.

Mashallah bro you have said it all..


 

'When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Path becomes clear' – Rumi
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Sonya
 
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bullet Posted: 03 June 2007 at 9:03am
Originally posted by abuzaid

Sister Sonya,

You have to be very clear about whom you refer to be as Wahabi.. some sects calls anyone against themselves as Wahabis. The wahabi is a term created by British in subcontinent to slander people who call for pure tawheed and elimination of bid'ah.

To be strict in sunnah prayer is not the method of Ahlus Sunnah. Sunnah prayer are those which are not obligatory and to stress on sunnah prayer as though its is obligatory is bidah. Here I never meant to demean Sunnah (naoodu billah) But in sub-continent there are muslims who never bother if his brother does not do fard prayer, but if someone goes out of masjid without sunnah, they just can't digest it. They feel its complusory to perform all sunnah prayer once a person enter into Masjid. If a person never comes to masjid in years, they do not have any issue with them, they consider such person as AHlus Sunnah. This is the mindset, this is clearly making something as fard with is not fard in the Deen of Allah.

 

As per the proof, why do you think you have to provide the proof? This is they who have to provide proof for someone to be out of Ahlus Sunnah. If they says that they are less strict about sunnah prayer, than again its upon them to prove that being less strict in sunnah prayer throw them out of fold of Ahlus Sunnah.

I am sure that those who claim wahabis are not ahlus Sunnah would consider grave worshippers as Ahlus Sunnah despite their clear shirk in Ibadat.

Thank you brother!

i agree with everything you have said and i need your help with this. its not that i am eager to prove to them that 'wahabis' are part of ahlus sunnah. its an established fact and we dont need to prove facts. what offends me is their ignorance towards this subject. and what is more serious is the fact that they are our Muslim brothers. its such a shame to know that at this time when we need to fight enemies of Islam, we fight our own Muslim brothers.

brother, it will be of great if you could provide me an answer for why did Mohammad ibn Abdul wahab declare a jihad against fellow Muslims? against the ottoman empire? did Mohammad ibn Abdul wahab attack first or the ottoman empire? i am aware that Muslims in those days had somewhat started grave worshipping and so Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab said its wrong. but are we allowed to declare jihad against our Muslim brothers? is there an islamic justification to this?

ma'salaama

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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 03 June 2007 at 10:59am

First of all, who are Wahhabis?

Can any specific groups be classified as follower of Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab?? Has any group claimed that they are Wahhabi or follower of Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab???

Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab is history, both his supporters and opponents will propose their own version of history and no one will agree on others version.

So, its better we discuss present instead of past. Just ask them, just because someone respect Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi, he goes out of Ahlus Sunnah? Is this the criterion to judge if someone is Ahlus Sunnah?

Normally barelwis of subcontinent would declare anyone as Wahhabi who does not agree with them. If required they declare Jamaat-e-Islami as Wahhabi, and sometime deobandis and Tablighi as Wahhabi and mostly they declare Ahle-Hadith as Wahhabi. And none of these groups ever claim to be Wahhabi.

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bullet Posted: 03 June 2007 at 9:11pm

Originally posted by Sonya

As salaamu'alikum wr wb

Currently, i am having a debate in a forum where i say that wahabbis are sunnis but ppl over there say that they are not sunnis. they are a totally different sect. i dont believe this.. i live in UAE and i have seen wahabbis. they are just like myself.

 

Assalam Aleikum Sonya.

A wahabi is a term given to those who follow the teachings espoused by the 18th century sectarian, self proclaimed scholar and leader named Muhammad ibn Abd'l wahab. The movement became well known on the Arabian Peninsula as it took on a political tone as part of an ethical Arab uprising to the tired Ottoman regime. Using its tenets as being those that would purify the land, the political synthesis gave rise to the chieftain Muhammad ibn Saud, who was the political power to move the sectarian tenets of uneducated followers to an actual movement as a way to move the local masses to rebel against the acting Caliph, under the guise of "purifying" the faith and the land. In reality they were mostly bandits and created a great fitnah that would eventually aid the enemies of Islam. 

The British used this sect that had become a faith/political synthesis to help finish off the Ottomans (a religious sect is an efficient way to mobilize a grass roots uprising). The nature of a sect is to be in constant tension with those around it. By nature, they declare that everyone has been wrong and only they, and the founder, have it right, and it is their religious duty to bring about change, sometimes violently as with the early roots of "wahabism". It is this constant tension that can maintain harsh feelings between a sect and the mainstream, in general, depending on the ideas that a sect uses to separate itself from others.

Without any use of an actual judicial system, Imam An-Najdi simply declared hundreds of Muslims as apostates for issues that were 1) not a matter of aqida and were only apparent under his irrational guidelines of "shirk", and 2) not actually proven under an official "qadi", this gave rise to the free taking of property and "pious murder".

Wahabism, through the use of oil revenue, had some small successes moving out from the Arabian peninsula, but the successes did not match the amount of money put behind the attempt to make the teachings of Imam An-Najdi mainstream.        

My understanding is that "wahabis" are Sunni, but are considered to be a sect due to their abuse and over arguing of various concepts in aqida, and relegating certain beliefs of Sunni Muslims as a matter of aqida when they were never a matter of a aqida before. This has caused a great deal of "tension" and anger within the Ahl As-sunnah and this why you may find high animosity towards "wahabis" from Sunnis.

 

the only difference is they are a bit more ultra strict when it comes to music and thats something good ofcourse. i was told by these ppl on the forum that wahabis are not even strict with their sunnah prayers. please help me because i strongly believe that i am right. i need solid proofs to support my claim.

The differences are actually a bit more complicated, and depending upon the various shades of the adherents of the "wahabi"/"neo-salaf" path. At the core of "wahabism" is an inflated focus on aqida, which is where they derive their rhetorical takfir's on thousands of adherent muslims. Sunni Muslims claim to follow in line with the teachings of the Prophet (saw), some of the "sunnah" prayers are deemed important, though not defined as "fard", but their value is extremely high due to the strong hadiths that tell us about this particular practice of the Prophet (saw). The Sahaba knew that the Prophet (saw) was the "target", as far as how we should act and worship, and if the prophet (saw) considered something important, then it is only reasonable that it is something we should also value as important, especially if we strive to love the Messenger (saw). To try and make such a silly point of ignoring a very important sunnah prayer simply to claim that you are protecting Islam against innovation, is an extremely juvenile point and the price to pay for such a silly point (wasting a precious moment that you can never get back to bring yourself closer to God) is too great. I have prayed behind an Imam who made such an idiotic statement after the fard prayer. I was simply floored.

Being strict with the shariah is not a trophy nor should it be a way to show how you are different from others. Riya has a nasty way of creeping into our every day practices and we should be always vigilant. We should be harder on ourselves than others, and not distinguish ourselves from others by showing how zealous we are with outward appearances and practices. 

In general, another area of dispute has also divided "wahabis" from Sunnis, and that is in regard to the science of tasawuuf. The propaganda and cheap polemics have been an avenue the group has tried to use to smear an acceptable part of the deen, and it has been more "fitnah". The cheap polemics usually amount to taking statements from Sunni scholars out of context, displaying ignorant men who are mistakenly practicing something not considered a part of "tasawuuf", and then labeling it "sufi" so they can claim how deviated Sufis are.

  

I also know its wrong to use the term 'wahabi' but Allah knows that i did it only for the sake of clarity. my intention was not to discriminate between Muslims. One question that is raised is why did Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab declare jihad against Muslims of those days?

Because he was not qualified to make the claims he did and made great errors, and his followers were no different than bandits. By re-inventing aqida, he could have the power to make takfir as he pleased.

 why did he rise against Ottoman Empire which belonged to Muslims? i was told by a frend that back in those days.. ppl had somewhat started grave worshipping and so he had to claim that they are polytheists. he even demolished tomb of a companion (r.a).

Not only did he rise up again the Caliph, but his later followers aided the British in taking out the last of the Ottomans. They installed regimes more corrupt than the Ottomans were at the end of their 700 reign, and they (the fruit of those who used this movement to take power) currently aid kafir governments, and they waste the oil revenue. The idea that the "wahabis" were just cleaning up the land is a strawman argument used by the official historians to sugar coat the actual truth. Who actually knew if any of the hundreds of Muslims that were declared kafirs and murdered through Imam An-Najdi's delusional ijtihad were actually committing shirk? 

 this makes sense but isnt it that we cant declare war against our fellow muslims? isnt it that we have to make them understand in a more peaceful way?

Any man who single handedly tampers with matters of aqida and then declares thousands of Muslims to be "kafirs" should be a wake up call.

 In the end, "wahabis" are Sunni, but some of their ideas create a huge fitnah and a constant tension within Sunni Islam, which is why you will find some who will resent you if you will declare yourself to follow the teachings and ideas that are found in the expressions of Muhammad ibn abd'l wahab.

Assalam Aleikum

 

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bullet Posted: 04 June 2007 at 4:47am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Sister sonya i was just wondering why do you need to prove it to other people that people who call themselves 'ahlul hadith' are part of 'ahlul sunnah wal jama'? its such a can of worms which don't need to be openend as majority of it is in past and people have moved on since the time of Muhammad ibn abdul wahab.

There is a truth in what brother abuzaid said that there are people among us who would call any1 a 'wahabi' who does not agree with them and on the other hand there are people who would call anything 'bida' or 'shirk' which they themselves don't agree with. So if you talk to one group they would give you hundered reason against the other and the other would do the same.

It is also truth that people who think themselves to be higher in status, be it religious or anything else, seperate themselves from the main stream. In this case people with Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab did think that what they have was better than rest of main stream islam. Majority of muslims before and even after that follow what was there before.

If a muslims believes in tawheed of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and as Holy Qur'an says follows Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam without having any resistance in heart, knows and admits the merits of early generations and their rulings, then rest is between him and His Lord.

I have learnt from experience here that if some1 does not want to believe you then you can make them drink water and they will call it fire.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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bullet Posted: 04 June 2007 at 6:25am

“SHOULD SOME MUSLIMS DISCRIMINATE AGAINST OTHER MUSLIMS ?”

 

“This is a sunni website, the main section of the forums are for topics from a sunni perspective. So as not to confuse people about what sunni Islam teaches non sunni discussions are confined to the Itrafaith section of the forum.”

 

“Shia are not Ahlus Sunnah, they consider source of Deen as Ah Al bayt and Quran only. Some may dispute Quran also.”

 

049.010

YUSUFALI: The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.

 

003.103

YUSUFALI: And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

 

General discussion is not for Sunnis only. Muslims, Non-Muslims, Sunnis, and Non-Sunnis have posted in this section and continue to do so. Non-Sunnis are not “confined” to the ghetto of “Intrafaith section”.

 

Shia’s do not dispute the Quran. Anyone who claims otherwise is wrong by ignorance or malice. He should fear Allah (SWT) and not accuse fellow Muslims unjustly

Respectfully
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