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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophets?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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rami
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bullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 12:34am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I am not so expert but will insha-Allah explain it from Quran.

Any person can come up with an explanation for any verse in the Quran, the idea is to understand what Allah and his prophet intended it to mean not what you or i intend it to mean. Otherwise you would be suggesting that your explanation is absolutely in accordance with what allah intends when the reaity is you are 1400 years apart from the revelation.

Just becouse you have an idea doesnt mean you are correct. You have fear of trusting ahadith and dont want to commit sin, well it is an even bigger sin to explain the Quran in a way that Allah and his prophet did not intend.

Any person can read the Quran and come up with his own explanation for each verse Al Qaeda do it all the time, but understanding it the way Allah and his prophet intended is extremely hard. You want to prove you explanation is correct without anything but your own reasoning you may as well claim you are being Guided by Allah in explaining each verse becouse you have no external way of verifying this is what rasul allah taught the verse to mean.

By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

It was his job to explain what it meant, how do you know what he meant 1400 years later.

You were reffering some confirmed sayings of prophet, who told you it's confirm?

Do you know how the science of hadith verification works, simple question, can you please answer it otherwise this hole discussion is pointless.

Only Quran, you can be sure are Allah's words, prophet said, and scientifically proven to be Allah's words. Do you have any prove that those were prophets word?

what is your scientific proof the Quran was preseved?

Now place the scholars/idols who put false words in the mouth of beloved prophet.

Scientifically prove this acusation, otherwise this is just slander. Prove that Imam Bukhari made up one hadith or any person he narated from fabricated a single hadith.

If you cant SPECIFICALY prove this stay silent. Do you know the difference between a general and specific statment?

If you are now going to say the Quran is against ahadith and this is all the proof i need to prove he is wrong, then you know nothing about science and have no right to speak about any scholar or scientific method as you have just proven you ignorance.

What do you think Allah has revealed? I am sure Quran is the only revealation.

What i said is based on understanding more than one verse in the Quran at the same time, Allah commands else where to follow the prophet and accept his judgment on matters, how can you follow the orders of rasul allah if allah did not preserve them as he did the Quran otherwise these verses would be null and void for later generations.

Allah does not command people to do things they can not do.

Who said it is sahih? Scholars; neither Quran, nor Prophet, neither sahabas, some people reffered sahabas after a few hundred years. Please read my previous Quotes from Quran.

Rasul allah taught ibn Umar, Ibn Umar taught
Nafi' b. Sarjis who taught Imam Malik who in turn recorded it in His muwatta.

here is the Muwatta,

PERF No. 731: The Earliest Manuscript Of Malik's Muwatta' Dated To His Own Time.


Are you accusing rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] of not teaching Ibn Umar correctly, are you accusing Ibn Umar a sahabi of not teaching Nafi b. Sarjis a tabii properly, are you accusing Imam Malik of lying.

Why dont you adress this specifically!

Dear Brother, i am not a new comer in Islam and have enough resources to know what is the science? (It is deceving people, i believe you know the definition of science). The most authentic book of sahih Bukhari (As per you 'There are declared GALAT hadith also') mentons that how much corruption and conflicts were there for making false hadiths. Please read the science again. Only blind faith on Mr. Bukhari and likes, better have blind faith on Allahs words.

Really, in your earlier post you claim you found no science in the sahih of Imam Bukhari and now you are claiming you know it?

Who declared that the ahadith in sahih Bukhari are wrong prove it!

more general statements and no actual evidence.


He said corruption was present not that every muslim was liar and corrupt which is what you are saying.




Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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bullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 5:48am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Brother there were two reasons for me to not participate in this thread at start, then on you invitation i did. First reason was your way of describing the scholars for whom majority of past scholars had showed nothing but respect and secondly because i thought brother rami has more knoweldge and better way of explaining things than me.

Brother now i wished i hadn't, because the worst thing you can do to a believer is compare his coviction of faith to a an idol worshiper but then i thought if you wont spare a well respected scholar, i am no one. So I am sorry but i wont be participating in this thread because i tried to explain things for sake of my Lord and if personal feelings come to it that is wrong.

But i would tell you one thing very sincerely, one thing that i can tell reading only few posts from you is that you need to rid yourself of assumptions. You assumed that i have not read Holy Quran with just meanings, thats how i started my journey brother just Holy Quran, you assume that the verse 17:79 is for general public, it is specific for Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam telling him that he needs to pray tahajjud. And the verses i said in Surah muzammil are the ones telling muslims that tahajjud is fard on them because thats the way it was before the night of isra. And the verse you keep mentioning of reading Holy Quran in a voice that is neither too low nor too high is early makkan time. Muslims use to pray their salah in hiding so it was revealed that pray in a way that your companions can hear but not the troublemaker non-believers.

But then again you dont believe in knowing the background of verses. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran that He is the one who guides people. So i pray that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to his right path.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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amah
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bullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 10:45am

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

I want you to answer me please wherever I have put a question for you.

There are many things you have stated in your posts which you wouldnt have if you had true knowledge and understanding of the Quran and science of hadith.

your post in black:

For me Quran alone is enough and only guidance; that's what Quran testifies.

No, Allah says in the quran many times to follow the messenger.

Meanwhile if you can please tell me what is the proof of these Hadith that these are prophet's words?

So many proofs have been given, more will come insha allah...

Why should I turn to history for Ibadah while Allah has made it clear in Quran?

I never asked you to take rulings of ibadah from history, you are putting words in my mouth.

You are the one who is telling us about the history of how uthman and ali were killed, how muslims are divided etc, how do you know all this? You believe the people in this regard ? but you refuse to believe in a single hadith? If I tell you uthman was not murdered (just suppose) , can you prove it to me otherwise? and how?

I asked you about history because I want to show you how conveniently you talk about history, and in the next line you say you dont believe the scholars......why can that (the "history" you believe in ) not be distorted?

There may be some hadith which has elements of truth; but there are lies/false things mixed with it; how can that be a source of mandatory law? 

Prove that it is mixed with lies. Br rami asked you this many times. You are accusing sahabas and the later generations of lying.

I am sure that the prophet didnt violet Quran and didnt make any laws beside the Quran.

 If each and everything about life was mentioned in the quran, imagine how long it would have been?

Allah definitely forbids any other teaching other than Quran; And Quran is the only source of law for muslims. Mohammad didnt preach anything other than Quran.

You are highly mistaken. If that were the case, then tell me quran mentions about chopping off the thiefs hand. From where do you chop off, the whole arm, till elbow or from the wrist? Will you chop off the hand of a small child who steals? Will you chop off the hands of a hungry person who stole food? Which hand will you chop off, right? left? or both?

24:13   Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah 24:14   Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair. 24:15   When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.24:16   And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this: Glory to Allah! this is a most serious slander!"

Now; Is there any sense for going to history/tafsir to know who was that man/woman to complain and when and where it happened? What additional benefit u get in that? Isnt Quran clear on the law? Just complicating and running the risk of believing in lies; The names of the places, time or story; any where there may be mistake in a description after/over 200 years; while it has no benefit in understanding the Law.

 

Believing  lies? What nonsense! Yes, quran is sent for all of us and is applicable till the day of judgement. But for who was it revealed initially? Do you know what difference this ayah made to the life of aisha?

04.048               Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. 004.049           Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.  004.050    Behold! How they invent a lie against Allah! but that by

If you have read it, iam sure that you understand the meaning of your verses. As the prophet was physically present amongst the people so it is mentioned him and Allah. How do you get him as your judge once he is dead? If you are trying to reach to a dead soul, you are trying to make him divine not human thus partnering with Allah.

We are not reaching to a dead soul but refering to his sunnah. Where do you get these ideas about us?

Obey the messenger indicates message; If it meant mohammad, then don't you think that the number of marriage he had; becomes obligatory for all of us? After all 'follow' is a command. isnt it?

I am surprised at your ignorance. Or maybe not (after reading all this).Some things were allowed only for the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Regarding marriage, it is clear in the quran that a man cannot marry more than 4 times, THIS you know, dont you? so how can it be obligatory here to follow this particular sunnah? your example is very poor.

Everything is there perfectly in Quran, if you ever wanted to know. I will insha Allah provide the complete, Salat related information/instruction from the Quran.

why is it taking you time to tell us that?

I definitely believe in the words of prophet;

What? Arent you contradicting yourself?

 he brought us the Quran from Allah. That is proven to be perfectly from Allah; and to be divine.

Prove it, you have still not proven it to us, you are only stating your belief , your understanding. Repeating something hundred times does not make it the truth.

 It's the prophet who told us that it is from Allah.

Did the prophet tell you this himself? How can you make such a statement? Where did the prophet say this??????????? Arent you contradicting yourself?

I am only not believing the hadith writers and scholars who wrote manythings out of rivalry between them and got us divided in the process.

How can you say this? Your proof? 

They have not proven that these were prophets words, many of which are contradictory to Quran.

Which hadith are contradictory ? you are making general (false)statements without proof.

Who told you about there efforts? The person who has done it, he himself had to tell what all they have done to prove their worth. What ever hard work they have done; they could neither reach the prophet nor the sahabas and their 8-10 generations; to verify, whom the people were referring in hadith. Could they? Isnt it like Chinese whispers? Do you want to tell me that Hadith words are perfect?

It is insulting to call them Chinese whispers! This is ridiculous!

 

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Finally, do you think it is only aimed at the christians, jews and all those who came before prophet Muhammad? Is it not applicable for the Muslims as well?

Again.... Your assumption.

I would feel lucky if I could follow him in totality

Please see my earlier posts for refference from Quran; that even prophet was not authorised to make laws, it is only Allah who makes law.

You will be lucky if you insha allah understand your error, rather sin. you have purely misunderstood those verses.

If I follow Quran, I am also following the prophet and of course Allah. Isn't it?

How? by rejecting his sunnah?

There by Islam was finally divided into sects. Both parties have differences in Tafsirs and Hadith. Someone must have lied? Who was that? Probably we know each others answer. Can such things be a source of laws for Ibadah & Faith?

Who is this both? what parties? Be specific.

Prophet predicted that islam will be divided by people into 73 sects and only one will remain on the true path. But you dont know this because you do not read hadith.

You said this to br rami:

I knew you will not read my posts, because I reffered Quran.

So? You mean we dont refer to the quran?

I have read your post. I think Quran is not some thing you take guidance from, just preserve it nicely.

You are accusing him of something against which you have no knowledge or proof . But if you can accuse the sahabas..

I told in my previous posts to give me one verse, which is not possible to understand from Quran.

No matter how many verses we provide, you will give your own (mis)interpretation. So whats the point?

Now place the scholars/idols who put false words in the mouth of beloved prophet.

You are slandering not only the companions of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but also other people who dedicated their lives for islam. Allah has mentioned in the quran that he is pleased with the sahabas. Can you mention that verse?

I have Quoted Hadith Also if you like which says that it was forbidden to writedown anything else of prophet other than Quran,

That is incorrect. Hadith were written down during the prophets sallallahu alaihi wasallams time as well , infact he had scribes to write them down.

If you see the collection process of Quran during the time of Omar; it clearly says that eveything else other than quran was burnt and destroyed

 Hadith were not burnt. and your evidence/proof for this statement?

If some one memorises wrong thing, how can it become true?

If you say the wrong things, it cannot be true.

Some muslims tend to believe that those christians were bad people so changed it and our muslims are good people and they can't make mistake.

And you think allah would allow such major mistakes so that millions of muslims will be mislead? Allah would allow your own "salaah" in his house (baitullah)? Tell me how do you perform hajj? do you pray in jama'ah? How do you calculate your zakah, it is not mentioned in the quran how to.

Come on, Read history. who killed Usman? Who fought with Ali? Who betrayed whom?

Again.You believe history? Amazing!

Why muslims are divided? 

Satan, forgot about him?

 

dont answer my post yet....



Edited by amah
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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bullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 11:01am

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

I will be editing this post to add more ....insha allah.

1] Why did allah reveal this ayah? 

Surah al haaqqa

43.This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

44.And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah),

45.We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

46.And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta), 47.And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.

 

 

2] What does hikmah mean here?

Why does Allah mention in many places, quran and hikmah?

" He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them (from the filth of disbelief and polytheism), and teaching them the Book (this Quran, Islamic laws and Islamic jurisprudence) and Al-hikmah (As-Sunnah: legal ways, orders, acts of worship, etc. of Prophet Muhammad SAW). And verily, they had been before in mainfest error; "
(   , Al-Jumua, Chapter #62, Verse #2)

 

And remember (O you the members of the Prophets family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allah and Al-hikmah (i.e. Prophets Sunnah legal ways, etc. so give your thanks to Allah and glorify His Praises for this Quran and the Sunnah). Verily, Allah is Ever Most Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.  
(   , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #34)

 

"Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own (and indeed Allah answered their invocation by sending Muhammad Peace be upon him ), who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Quran) and Al-hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood, etc.), and sanctify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."  
(   , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #129)

 

Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Quran) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Quran) and the hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.  
(   , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #151)

 

And treat not the Verses (Laws) of Allah as a jest, but remember Allahs Favours on you (i.e. Islam), and that which He has sent down to you of the Book (i.e. the Quran) and Al-hikmah (the Prophets Sunnah - legal ways - Islamic jurisprudence, etc.) whereby He instructs you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is All-Aware of everything.  
(   , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #231)

 

Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Quran), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Quran) and Alhikmah (the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW (i.e. his legal ways, statements, acts of worship, etc.)), while before that they had been in manifest error.  
(   , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #164)

 

 

3]Why is it specified- follow the prophet?

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."  
(  سورة آل عمران  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #31)

 



Edited by amah
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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rami
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bullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 5:51pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

(Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

- Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun.

- By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] was instructed to explain the Quran, his mission as stated in the above verse was to Explain it to mankind this could only be done with later generations if his sunnah was preserved like the Quran and in reality it was.

No direct evidence has been shown to prove otherwise.

If our friend could speak arabic [which i know he cant] he would understand why there is a need to explain the Quran to people who where not there at the time of revelation. He would know this simply from knowing the arabic language. But what he relies on is the English translation of The Quran's meanings which was translated by people who where not Qualified to do so. So in reality he relies on other peope to tell him what the Quran means, there in no possible way to translate many of these verses without knowing asbab an nuzul [reason for there revelation].

Hi is relying on ahadith whether he realises it or not, the translators used ahadith to translate the Quran this is the only possible way.

But you would need to know arabic to realise that and arabic is nothing like english in its structure.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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bullet Posted: 31 March 2007 at 12:22am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

(Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

- Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun.

- By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

Brother Rami

Of course he has tought the people of that time Quran, when he was, all the people were idol worshipping. They definitely needed explanation. The time was 1400 years before, when people hardly knew even how to read/write. He has left the Quran for us and Allah says that it is enough and needs no explanation. Please once again I am requesting you to read & understand the Quranic verses I have Quoted before.

The hadith preachers method: you can try to apply all of those methods and findout what your fore fathers said before 200 years if you can find out the truth to put in their mouth. Even if one of the sentence/law is wrong; How much sinful it is to say that prophet said it, can you imagine?

Prophet is very important, does not mean that some one telling after 200 years that prophet said this and I will agree with that. Many of those are against or extension of Quran. All the persons reffered at the time of collecting hadith have died, how can they confirm it? Just a few scholars agree that it is good and it must be said by the prophet, can we put words in the prophets mouth and make it a law? While Quran is enough.

Prophets job is over and now we are to follow the Quran;

"You will find that the Sunnah of Allah is the only Sunnah" (33:62.... 35:43...48:23)
"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? 6:114

Quran is protected by Allah. How do you think that the Iblish is working to divert people? other than creating parallel books to take people away from the Main book (Quran)??

"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy sayings, in order to deceive" 6:112

However hard work the hadith collectors have done, they could only agree among themselves, could not verify it from the origin after 200 years.

They can do research on quran and agree on each other about the interpretation; I have no problem consulting research documents and try to form our own opinion about things of Quran, but when words are put to the mouth of prophet which are bound to be false words and try to malke it a parallel with Quran as a source of law, I have objection.

Untill someone proves that Quranic words are wrong. You are free to go deep into Quran and make your own opinion.

Prophet did not teach anything else other than Quran.

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

Hope you concentrate on the Quranic verses, not on mine, neither any scholar. If you cant prove it wrong, then have to reject hadith, however attractive it sounds to you.

We will be judged by Quran not hadith. Quran is preserved not hadith what Bukhari wrote. We all will have to answer Allah individually, no scholar will come to save us. If you want to risk your fate on them, Most welcome. But Allah clearly tells us to not to depend on scholars, in Quran.

Allah is so kind that he has given us the Quran as simple and straight path. Quran is understandable by every simple person. Alhamdulillah

Lets make constant perseverence to understand Quran; if Allah is kind he will help. Insha-Allah  



Edited by nu001
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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bullet Posted: 31 March 2007 at 7:41am

Hikmah is in Quran and as you read and look for the deeper meaning of those, you will get. Those who claim that they have hikmah, where do they get it from, other than Quran? I don't mind having opinions of the people who does extensive search on Quran, it definitely will help to form my opinion, but can't agree putting false words in the mouth of prophet.

Once the Quran was being revealed to the prophet, many were blaming the prophet that he wrote it, then Allah challenged through verses for them to write one sura (Finally) like this. They could not. And Allah tells many times in Quran to recite from the Quran during Salat. Do you want me to believe, that the prophet used to start his prayer with a non quranic verse as you start today? or Tshahhud made by people? or the dua during Betr prayer? or Twisted verses in Ruku and sijdah? Kill me brother, i will not believe that prophet left the glorious verses from Quran and made such things to recite in the prayer. __________ have made it......

Please think and understand from Quran, Quran has enough glorious verses to say prayer and prayer is only for Allah, should we recite verses (Poems) made by the people?

I don't want to convince you, I am convinced by Allah through Quran. I told you. now, decision is yours, Coz I will not answer for your actions, you will. So please understand what you are doing, don't depend on any one. Allah will give you that understanding, please enter into Quran, alone, depending on Allah.



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bullet Posted: 31 March 2007 at 8:17am

Salat, Fasting, Hajj and Zakah for everything, the essential things are mentioned in Quran. You can find everything in Quran.

Let me tell you about Zakah: Allah is so kind and knowledgeable, The instruction for jakah in Quran is to give Whatever you can give after whatever is left after essential expenditures. Don't be miser neither be extravagant that you land up in problem. But it is mandatory. Why should we fix up a percentage? For some one it may be burden, forsome one he might like to give more. Allah left it open, who are we to fix up the percentage (2.5%)

Believe me '0' '%' '.' was not invented during the time of prophet. Now you will tell me how the percent was developed from the prophet's instruction, I want to forget it. None has the right to make laws after Allah. If prophet suggested someone to pay some amount on some occassion, it does not mean that it becomes a rigid law over-writing Allah's law.Who is the supreme god?

We can deliberate on every issue u mentioned. I hope you can find out the verses from Quran on Zakah & other issues. If not tell me please, I will help. 

Alhamdulillah

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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