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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophet’s?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2007 at 8:52pm
nu001
786:ASA
I feel sorry that bro Sawtul and sister amah got no where with their effort to put the messenger (saw) in a perspective of the revelations.
This has been observed in the elitist Muslims who are late in their incursion into Islam by a lack of training early on in their lives.

Islam is a panoramic faith provided with way of life from the get go by the messenger(s) which was a complete package at the time of his death unlike any other religion which built dogma and rituals as they went along and gained political footholds.

It is also obvious that you ignore to acknowledge credit to the Prophet(saw) for his services to Allah on the ummah's behalf.

You relind me of Elijah Muhammad's MO of knowing the Quraan without any comprehending the background of each revelations and creating a deviant cult of his own. His main lieutenant Malcolm X discovered the truth and followed the proper sunnah faith but ended up paying the price with his life for telling the errors of his mentor's ways of interpreting Quraan.

Let's see when Allah states in the following signs: What areas are being covered !!!

Al -Ahzab
33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

a. his beautiful Sunnah
b. Hope for grace of Alllah on day of judgment
c. the prayer /how to

33:56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and
salute him with all respect


Where do you find the details of his beautiful pattern and

 send salutations in salaat if don' t check the procedures in the early Imam's say Abu Hanifa (R) Born 80/699-150/767-via his recording from Hadith for his school of jurisprudence which has continued since.
If your concern is about Bukhari that  he  came on the scene too late!

There is not much description about the Prophet (saw)in Quran,Where do you go--to the orientalists?


 
Al-Imran 3:31 Say Oh Prophet : "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (full of grace)."

Here The Prophet(saw) is being instructed by God to proclaim the to the believers to follow HIM if they want to be loved by Allah.

If you are bereft of the knowledge of his seerah how can you even get in that ball park much less following him?
Are you with me so far?

His is the most quoted, and scrutinized seerah there is of any world leader cuz his life was an open book for the believers to follow. They passed on the details to coming generations as a trust of their preferred love story. They will love to emulate his ways as much as humanly possible.
I have read about a great saint that he would not eat a certain fruit cuz he could not find in sunnah that how did the Prophet(saw) ate that particular item.
Allah's grace is not possible till one loves the ways of Muhammad(sa) in the light of the quoted signs.

The companions were his lovers cuz he came back after ascension to suffer at the hands of the idolaters  in order to complete the religion of his patriarch Abraham (as)  and establish which nobody could achieve in span of millenniums the numerous prophets of Israelites notwithstanding.


It is OK if the some hadith were transmitted in poor form or recorded as such and tell you what they are not the basis of Islamic creed anyways.

The Quraan is always there as GO NOGO gaging for quality purposes(Furqan) as long as you are knowledgeable and granted wisdom and not creating trouble (fitnah).

It seems you are trying to self medicate yourself cuz the access to the pharmacy is available. There are some ailments you may self medicate by reading the labels and get your health back,  but you know it is always smart to ask the pharmacist. You know self medication is bad idea when life threatening condition prevails.
It also indicates a condition of irresponsibility and a state where the people take short cuts to make up for the missed opportunities in their
devolutionary processes. Some Muslims or pseudo Muslims are prone to this kind of approach in their futile attempt to mollify their colonial states. First they knock at the seerah then they will go to modify the  Quraan itself, then what next only Allah knows.
The Kharjites of the Ali/Muaviyah conflict time frame also were the proponents of the Quraan only to be the arbiter of disputes and then guess what they created in the ummah? a split that has no chance of healing in foreseeable future.
It is part of humanity, one doesn't need to get bent out of shape and throw the baby with bath water.

How do you develop the jurisprudence if you don't have the body of hadith available to set up and adjudicate in the court system, unless you are 
proponent of status quo of colonial legal system for Muslims.

So in conclusion if there will be a need of the Islamic jurisprudence there will be demand to establish Islamic schools and universities the scholars and student will debate and sort out which hadith are Prophet's and which are not! And are they even applicable to the current life & times.

Muslims need to develop big shoulders first to carry this responsibility. The most educated Muslims are helping the colonialist at the moment being in diaspora like the Jews were.
It is matter of law and order; the muslims are just trying or look like to free themselves of the colonialism and the next step has to be rule of the law and enforcement of the laws without fear or favor. 

More later may be








Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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amah
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2007 at 1:44am

Bismillah...assalaamualaikum

Shukran bro sign for "reviving" this topic (though I have still not read your post). I wish to discuss this with br nu and I will try to the best of my abilities. I am just short of time. Will be back later Allah willing...

wassalaam.

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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rami
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2007 at 2:17am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

The norm and standard is that ahadith are from rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] as proved by the scholars of ahadith, therefor the onus is on nu001 to prove each and every individual hadith is fabricated.

You are claiming something new not something this ummah has ever claimed in its entire history.

You can start with the muwatta, Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." [who, of course, narrated from the Messenger of Allah] The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta’.

Here is a Translation of Malik's Muwatta.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2007 at 8:43pm

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

The norm and standard is that ahadith are from rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] as proved by the scholars of ahadith, therefor the onus is on nu001 to prove each and every individual hadith is fabricated.

You are claiming something new not something this ummah has ever claimed in its entire history.

You can start with the muwatta, Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." [who, of course, narrated from the Messenger of Allah] The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta’.

Here is a Translation of Malik's Muwatta.

Brother Rami

Reading your post, I feel that you have not read all the previous posts in the thread. Please read it, the prove exists there. Tell me which of the quranic verses are wrong (May Allah Forgive Us) to say that quran is the only source of law, Quran is detail-complete and needs no explanation etc etc etc .........

If you agree and believe in Allah's words then where from Hadith comes?

Then come about hadith; Mr. Bukhari says that these are reliable chains and we can believe it. So you believe it. Forget about his certificate, first tell me, why should I believe Bukhari himself that he was righteous? Any mandate he has from Allah to make laws? isn't it like Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke describing what jesus said and did? Just think.

You tell me why Hadith is needed? If you know any reason, please tell me. 

I really want a serious & friendly discussion; Let the truth be established for our benefit (That includes me) 

Salam

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2007 at 9:22pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

nu001
786:ASA
I feel sorry that bro Sawtul and sister amah got no where with their effort to put the messenger (saw) in a perspective of the revelations.
This has been observed in the elitist Muslims who are late in their incursion into Islam by a lack of training early on in their lives.

Islam is a panoramic faith provided with way of life from the get go by the messenger(s) which was a complete package at the time of his death unlike any other religion which built dogma and rituals as they went along and gained political footholds.

It is also obvious that you ignore to acknowledge credit to the Prophet(saw) for his services to Allah on the ummah's behalf.

You relind me of Elijah Muhammad's MO of knowing the Quraan without any comprehending the background of each revelations and creating a deviant cult of his own. His main lieutenant Malcolm X discovered the truth and followed the proper sunnah faith but ended up paying the price with his life for telling the errors of his mentor's ways of interpreting Quraan.

Let's see when Allah states in the following signs: What areas are being covered !!!

Al -Ahzab
33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

a. his beautiful Sunnah
b. Hope for grace of Alllah on day of judgment
c. the prayer /how to

33:56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and
salute him with all respect


Where do you find the details of his beautiful pattern and

 send salutations in salaat if don' t check the procedures in the early Imam's say Abu Hanifa (R) Born 80/699-150/767-via his recording from Hadith for his school of jurisprudence which has continued since.
If your concern is about Bukhari that  he  came on the scene too late!

There is not much description about the Prophet (saw)in Quran,Where do you go--to the orientalists?


 
Al-Imran 3:31 Say Oh Prophet : "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (full of grace)."

Here The Prophet(saw) is being instructed by God to proclaim the to the believers to follow HIM if they want to be loved by Allah.

If you are bereft of the knowledge of his seerah how can you even get in that ball park much less following him?
Are you with me so far?

His is the most quoted, and scrutinized seerah there is of any world leader cuz his life was an open book for the believers to follow. They passed on the details to coming generations as a trust of their preferred love story. They will love to emulate his ways as much as humanly possible.
I have read about a great saint that he would not eat a certain fruit cuz he could not find in sunnah that how did the Prophet(saw) ate that particular item.
Allah's grace is not possible till one loves the ways of Muhammad(sa) in the light of the quoted signs.

The companions were his lovers cuz he came back after ascension to suffer at the hands of the idolaters  in order to complete the religion of his patriarch Abraham (as)  and establish which nobody could achieve in span of millenniums the numerous prophets of Israelites notwithstanding.


It is OK if the some hadith were transmitted in poor form or recorded as such and tell you what they are not the basis of Islamic creed anyways.

The Quraan is always there as GO NOGO gaging for quality purposes(Furqan) as long as you are knowledgeable and granted wisdom and not creating trouble (fitnah).

It seems you are trying to self medicate yourself cuz the access to the pharmacy is available. There are some ailments you may self medicate by reading the labels and get your health back,  but you know it is always smart to ask the pharmacist. You know self medication is bad idea when life threatening condition prevails.
It also indicates a condition of irresponsibility and a state where the people take short cuts to make up for the missed opportunities in their
devolutionary processes. Some Muslims or pseudo Muslims are prone to this kind of approach in their futile attempt to mollify their colonial states. First they knock at the seerah then they will go to modify the  Quraan itself, then what next only Allah knows.
The Kharjites of the Ali/Muaviyah conflict time frame also were the proponents of the Quraan only to be the arbiter of disputes and then guess what they created in the ummah? a split that has no chance of healing in foreseeable future.
It is part of humanity, one doesn't need to get bent out of shape and throw the baby with bath water.

How do you develop the jurisprudence if you don't have the body of hadith available to set up and adjudicate in the court system, unless you are 
proponent of status quo of colonial legal system for Muslims.

So in conclusion if there will be a need of the Islamic jurisprudence there will be demand to establish Islamic schools and universities the scholars and student will debate and sort out which hadith are Prophet's and which are not! And are they even applicable to the current life & times.

Muslims need to develop big shoulders first to carry this responsibility. The most educated Muslims are helping the colonialist at the moment being in diaspora like the Jews were.
It is matter of law and order; the muslims are just trying or look like to free themselves of the colonialism and the next step has to be rule of the law and enforcement of the laws without fear or favor. 

More later may be

Dear Sign Reader

I can understand your sentiments; it is hard to come out from the thoughts which is age old. If you try to understand the Quranic verses being a little neutral (Without Preconceived ideas) for the time being; you will i hope have a better meaning of it.

I love prophet as much as you do. That's why I believe that each and every word of Quran is from Allah & follow it, and it is proven that there is no mistake in Quran.

Quran says that prophet didnot do or preach anything else other than Quran; I would feel lucky if I could follow him in totality. But unfortunately he is not there and left the Quran for us to follow.

Please see my earlier posts for refference from Quran; that even prophet was not authorised to make laws, it is only Allah who makes law. Now once Mr Bukhari says that prophet did this after 200 years, which is not supported by Quran, why should I believe him, any good reason?

Can you just prove that these were prophet's words/deeds/orders without having blind faith on Mr. Bukhari?

How do you explain the verses I quoted in my previous posts?

If I follow Quran, I am also following the prophet and of course Allah. Isn't it?

Can you also tell me why you need to know tafsirs/background (Which is disputed by different faction of muslims) to understand Quran? Can you site example of a verse which cant be understood without knowing background of it?

If hadith, tafsir etc was necessary, don't you think that the Chaliphs (who put Quran together as a book) would have recorded it? Why they will leave it for someone after over 200years coming from a non arabic background (Bukhara) to put it together and divide islam on the issue?

Please read the introduction of the very bukhari and the history back to the days of the last chaliph, how was the situation and how people were giving wrong refferences of prophet for their benefits (Money/power) while muslims were fighting muslims. Which group was right? Naturally every one likes to think their fore fathers were right. Islam is not fore fathars religion.

Allah did not complicate things, we the people did. People don't make religion, Allah makes. Allah has delivered Quran as the staright path. Confusions and controversies of hadith can't be a part of straight path.

Allah is the Greatest.

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2007 at 9:47pm

Text under the comments heading are only my words. Please read it and may go though the entire history of the time and hadith, and make your conscious decision for it. If you are confused, please turn to Quran. Allah has given us a straight path and His prophet Muhammad did not do or preach anything other than Quran. That's why when Allah says follow muhammad; Now it means follow the Quran which came through him.

Have A Glimpse from the History - After 24 years of Prophets Death:

After Uthman (Usman) was assassinated (656 AD) Ali was elected as Caliph. This period only lasted for five years. I call this period the period of frustration. Hadrat Ali found the caliphate to be a bed of thorns. During those five years, he fought three battles: (i) the Battle of the Camel, (ii) the Battle of Siffin, and (iii) the Battle of Nahrawan. All three battles were fought against the Muslims and led to considerable bloodshed. It was a matter of the great shock for him, that instead of fighting against non-Muslims, he had to fight against Muslims.

At the outset of his caliphate, he was betrayed by Banu Umayya when Muawiyah defied him and accused him of involvement in the murder of Hadrat Othman. He was betrayed by the people of Medina who did not respond to his call to undertake 'jihad' against Muawiyah. He was betrayed by Talha and Zubair, who took the oath of allegiance from him and later defected. He was betrayed by Hadrat A'isha his mother-in-law, who took top arms against him. He was betrayed by the people of Basra who had taken the oath of allegiance fro] him but later defected. At Siffin he was betrayed by his own army who would not fight when the victory was in sight. In the matter of arbitration, he was betrayed by his umpire Abu Musa Ashari, who instead of defending his cause, deposed him. He had to face the succession of the Kharijites who had originally fought on his side at the battle of Siffin. He was betrayed by Khurrity b. Raashid who had been his ally, but later revolted against him, and created trouble in Basra. He was betrayed by his own brother Aquil who was not satisfied with the allowance that Hadrat Ali gave him, and joined Muawiyah who rewarded him handsomely. He was betrayed by his cousin Abdullah b. Abbas when he had appointed as the Governor of Basra, and who left his post after misappropriated heavy fines from the Bait-ul-Mal. The final active betrayal came when Hadrat Ali was married, by a fanatic Kharijite.

Comments:     Just have a look at the history at the last legs of the Caliphate. You can well imagine what was going on there after. If you are interested you can go through all of it. The anarchy, fighting and betrayals all around are notable. Don’t you think/see clearly that all these were because of money/power/benefits etc?? Surely; not for the benefit of Islam.

Introduction of the Book ‘Sahih Bukhari’:

“The explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries confronted Islamic scholars with a daunting task: to preserve the knowledge of the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). Hence the science of hadith evaluation was born.

Science of Hadith

“The more important reason was the deliberate fabrication of hadith by various sects which appeared amongst the Muslims, in order to support their views (see later, under discussion of maudu' ahadith). Ibn Sirin (d. 110), a Successor, said, "They would not ask about the isnad. But when the fitnah (trouble, turmoil, esp. civil war) happened, they said: Name to us your men. So the narrations of the Ahl al-Sunnah (Adherents to the Sunnah) would be accepted, while those of the Ahl al-Bid'ah (Adherents to Innovation) would not be accepted.”

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienc eofhadith/asai.html

Comments:     This is from the justification given in the book of Sahih bukhari. Which he (Bukhari) collected between 826 AD-841 AD and was first compiled as a book in 842 AD. I did not find any ‘science’ in it; though they deliberately used the word and notably another word was ‘hard work’. I also didn’t understand what type of hard work could verify what prophet said? Believing their own people and using their judgment? That was after around 150 years from the death of Ali. You can imagine the deterioration of the situation at that time from Bukhari’s explanation of ‘fabrication for sectarian benefits’; by different sects and the reasons were still about power, money, gains etc.

At that point some group came up with this concept of hadith; for what? Whom did they serve? They served the sectarian leaders to uphold the positions of their own sects. This created religious elites; who gained a share of control in money, power, benefits along side the rulers.

There by Islam was finally divided into sects. Both parties have differences in Tafsirs and Hadith. Someone must have lied? Who was that? Probably we know each others answer. Can such things be a source of laws for Ibadah & Faith?

Well there may be some element of truth mixed with it, if that does not bother you, then no problem. But that bothers me and takes me back to the complete truth and noting but truth. Al Quran.

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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bullet Posted: 28 March 2007 at 2:42am


Dear Sign Reader

Further to my last post; I basically have no disagreement with you on the issue of following the prophet.

1. I don't have any sort of believeable proof that the hadith is prophet's words/acts etc & How do you believe blindly on something which has been passed over 200 years? isn't it possible to be corrupted, given the situation during this period?

2. If you have to check with Quran everything and then follow whatever is supported by Quran; then why go there? Simply Read the Quran and follow it directly. Why complicate?

3. Following Quran is following the prophet, coz he led his life according to the quran; Allah says. What problem do you/me could find in believing and doing that?

4. You seem to suggest that Quran alone is not enough for the jurisprudence, salat etc but i don't find any deficiency in Quran. I find everything is there in Quran. Anyway, you can't make new things which are not supported or guided by Quran.

5. You are accepting that there are some mistakes in Hadith but majority are good, so follow it. I am scared to be in sin by putting a single lie in prophet's mouth/name, while i don't find any necessity of doing it, coz i can get everything in the Quran.

I am following the prophet by following the complete Quran which he brought from Allah. Allah definitely (Insha-Allah) will not mind if someone lives within the Quranic laws, but will someone be spared for following & spreading a single lie in the name of prophet?

Can you gurantee that everything in Hadith is true?



Edited by nu001
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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bullet Posted: 28 March 2007 at 4:50am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

I am sorry brother but i dont think i have capacity to debate some1. For me every thing is 1 + 1 = 2 and i can never thank Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala enough to make things clear in my mind. For me Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala never makes anything without a purpose. Then how can he send 240,000 Prophets alyhimusalaam just like that, He only revealed four major books and hundred and some booklets (sahifa, sorry dont know the real translation of it). So were those Prophets not sent to clarify matters and tell people about the Laws of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

I am sure you must have seen me mentioning this so many times, but i can not seem to find anywhere in Holy Quran how to pray. The prayer times are not very clear themselves and many other things. I will mention one thing, if you read Surah Muzammil, it looks like tahajjud is fard on us, Do you think it is? and if not where does it say in Holy Quran it is not.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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