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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophet’s?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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amah
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bullet Posted: 13 March 2007 at 12:58pm

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, your understanding of the Quran is incorrect. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam was a practical example of how to live life as a muslim. Why didnt Allah just send the Quran down to us, why did he send a messenger ?

When Aisha radiallahu anha was asked about the character of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, she said his character was the quran.

Why does Allah stress upon obeying the Prophet so much (I dont need to repeat the verses). Allah said obey the messenger not obey the message.

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

 “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

If you were to disbelieve in hadith, how would you know about the tafsir of the quran? Do you know when surahs were revealed, under what cicumstances, etc?

Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

How do you exactly make salah ? No takbeer? no tashahhud? what do you read in qiyaam etc? What do you do regarding hajj?

Most importantly, if you do not believe in the words of the Prophet or the narrations of the sahabas, how do you believe in the fact that Quran came through them?  It is the same prophet who memorised the quran, same sahabas who memorised the quran. You trust them to pass on the quran to us, but reject the fact that they can transmit hadith? Just because the Quran says it is the truth you believe it? what proof do you have besides that?

Do you have any idea, how much effort has been put into hearing and preserving the hadith? Just because some people like Abdullah Chakralwi and the likes do not accept hadith, does not mean we must just throw away these gems from the prophet.

Do you read any books on history?

Yes you belong to a group, (ironically called) ahle quran or qurani. Even if you deny it. 

Allahu Yahdee

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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amah
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bullet Posted: 13 March 2007 at 1:09pm

nu001, you said:

Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)  

 

You read history? WHy? can historians not commit mistakes? And how come you quoted the hadith, aren't you not supposed to believe them?

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 13 March 2007 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by amah

nu001, you said:

Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)  

 

You read history? WHy? can historians not commit mistakes? And how come you quoted the hadith, aren't you not supposed to believe them?

Brother Amah

I have also read some of bible and other religious scriptures. I definitely read everything needed to understand the viewpoint of those who believe in History and Hadith for Guidance; For me Quran alone is enough and only guidance; that's what Quran testifies.

For those who believe that Quran is not enough; I am sure they will believe in the history & hadith to understand where they are going wrong. Just like a christian will understand a Quote from their bible to understand where they are going wrong, not the Quran.

I will be happy if you don't believe in the histories & hadith to make rules for Ibadah. I will write on your previous questions soon, insha-Allah in light of Quran, .

Meanwhile if you can please tell me what is the proof of these Hadith that these are prophet's words?

One can take the broad facts from history as general lessons related to the event. But can't draw religious laws from there, which relates to Ibadah of Allah.

Even the recent history of the world is manipulated by mankind to this extent that many are confused as to what is the fact. There are different versions of history of two world wars upto what is happenning in Iraq & Afg. Why should I turn to history for Ibadah while Allah has made it clear in Quran?

There may be some hadith which has elements of truth; but there are lies/false things mixed with it; how can that be a source of mandatory law? 

A person collecting it and telling us that this is sahih and this is not sahih, some scholars are disputing with what other is telling sahih; can that be something which can be a source of law for Ibadah? 

While everything is there in Quran, why do we need those? Prophet came with the message (Quran) from Allah and practiced it himself. I wish I was there to follow him and understand the Quran better. But unfortunately he left us and left the Quran for us as the Guidance from Allah. I am sure that the prophet didntot violet Quran and didnt make any laws beside the Quran.

Allah definitely forbids any other teaching other than Quran; And Quran is the only source of law for muslims. Mohammad didnt preach anything other than Quran. I quoted the verses in previous posts.

May Allah Guide us



Edited by nu001
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 9:24am
Originally posted by amah

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

Allahu Yahdee

Brother Amah

I will InshaAllah answer all of your statements from Quran, except the Accusations; I told you I dont belong to any group and I am only self convinced for standing by Quran. Lets discuss and really understand the truth. I want more Question from you where you think Hadith is mandatory to understand Quran.

Answer to your above quote: Verse 24:17

I am quoting some of the previous verses for the ease of readers but would request reading verses 24: 1-17 for clear understanding.

24:13   Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah.

24:14   Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.

24:15   When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.

24:16   And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this: Glory to Allah! this is a most serious slander!"

Its so simple and clearly described in Quran that unless someone is screened from the truth by Allah, can’t miss it. I repeat; please read the verses from 24:1 to 17, the entire discussion is there & it’s so clear.

In Short: Here in the verse (1-16) Allah gives the rule of bringing witness (also some other related things) for those; if anyone complains against someone for adultery. Finally in verse 17 Allah admonishes prophet, for accepting a complain of an adultery without witness. So the law and lesson is clear from Quran alone (It again proves that Quran is in details and enough) - Alhamdulillah

This is one of five instances in Quran, when Allah admonishes for mistake/points out mistake of the prophet; may the Muslims take heed that prophet was a human being and he also committed mistakes. Allah has proven it in Quranic verses. And we are trying to defend his words distorted over 200 years.

Now; Is there any sense for going to history/tafsir to know who was that man/woman to complain and when and where it happened? What additional benefit u get in that? Isn’t Quran clear on the law? Just complicating and running the risk of believing in lies; The names of the places, time or story; any where there may be mistake in a description after/over 200 years; while it has no benefit in understanding the Law. Brother it is crystal clear in Quran. (Alhamdulillah)

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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bullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 10:49am
Originally posted by amah

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, ......................................

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

 “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

Brother Amah

I am sure you will agree with me that Allah does not believe in coincidence. What ever he says and what ever he does, He exactly knows past, present and future of it. Just see some of the previous verses before He says verse 4:59:

04.048         Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

004.049       Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.

 004.050       Behold! How they invent a lie against Allah! but that by

                    itself is a manifest sin

If you have read it, iam sure that you understand the meaning of your verses. As the prophet was physically present amongst the people so it is mentioned him and Allah. How do you get him as your judge once he is dead? If you are trying to reach to a dead soul, you are trying to make him divine not human thus partnering with Allah.

As he was the judge during his life time, so there after many others will be judge to resolve disputes amongst people; Prophet did it with Allahs Laws, same will be done [and are possibly being done in some places] by Allahs laws by others. Did prophet have a different set of laws than Allah? 

I would love to go to the beloved prophet for justice than any other men we are going today for justice on disputes; because he would be sticking to the Quran better than anyone else there after. 

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by amah

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, your understanding of the Quran is incorrect. 

There is no scope of my different understanding of Quran; While Allah says these verses are perfect, clear, easy to understand, in details etc etc do you think that Allah used words in Quran tentatively?  He used perfect and clear words. There is no scope of another meaning. Can you explain what do those ayahs mean then?

"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"              6:114

"Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord (Qura’n)."     33:2

"The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice" 6:115

"We have made it (the Qura’n) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed.”              44:58

"A.L.R. This is a book whose verses have been perfected" 11:1

There are many more places where similar things are told by Allah.

Originally posted by amah

When Aisha radiallahu anha was asked about the character of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, she said his character was the quran.

So? We should follow Quran !! Where from Hadith comes in? If he followed Quran, why cant we try following Quran? Allah also says that in Quran; Isn’t it better to follow Allah's words than some one writing Hadith and telling that prophet said this, then we have to believe the hadith writers blindly, isn’t it? But following the Quran blindly is the safest option as prophet followed Quran.

Originally posted by amah

Why does Allah stress upon obeying the Prophet so much (I dont need to repeat the verses). Allah said obey the messenger not obey the message.

Allah uses perfect words; Obey the messenger indicates message; If it meant mohammad, then don't you think that the number of marriage he had; becomes obligatory for all of us? After all 'follow' is a command. isnt it?

Originally posted by amah

If you were to disbelieve in hadith, how would you know about the tafsir of the quran? Do you know when surahs were revealed, under what cicumstances, etc?

I have shown you before that these are not needed to understand Quran. Quran is indetail. These can only confuse you. It is neither ‘must know’ nor ‘should know’ for understanding Quran.

Originally posted by amah

Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

I replied it before; it's a law and lesson for whole of mankind. Whatever is the occassion.

Originally posted by amah

How do you exactly make salah ? No takbeer? no tashahhud? what do you read in qiyaam etc? What do you do regarding hajj?

Everything is there perfectly in Quran, if you ever wanted to know. I will insha Allah provide the complete, Salat related information/instruction from the Quran.

Originally posted by amah

Most importantly, if you do not believe in the words of the Prophet or the narrations of the sahabas, how do you believe in the fact that Quran came through them?  It is the same prophet who memorised the quran, same sahabas who memorised the quran. You trust them to pass on the quran to us, but reject the fact that they can transmit hadith? Just because the Quran says it is the truth you believe it? what proof do you have besides that?

I definitely believe in the words of prophet; he brought us the Quran from Allah. That is proven to be perfectly from Allah; and to be divine. It's the prophet who told us that it is from Allah.

I am only not believing the hadith writers and scholars who wrote manythings out of rivalry between them and got us divided in the process. They have not proven that these were prophets words, many of which are contradictory to Quran.

Originally posted by amah

Do you have any idea, how much effort has been put into hearing and preserving the hadith? Just because some people like Abdullah Chakralwi and the likes do not accept hadith, does not mean we must just throw away these gems from the prophet.

Who told you about there efforts? The person who has done it, he himself had to tell what all they have done to prove their worth. What ever hard work they have done; they could neither reach the prophet nor the sahabas and their 8-10 generations; to verify, whom the people were referring in hadith. Could they? Isnt it like Chinese whispers? Do you want to tell me that Hadith words are perfect?

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Finally, do you think it is only aimed at the christians, jews and all those who came before prophet Muhammad? Is it not applicable for the Muslims as well?

We should not depend on religious leaders and scholar 100% and neither believe evrything blindly without prove. There are many with malicious intentions.

"Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 3:79



Edited by nu001
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Sawtul Khilafah
 
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bullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 2:36pm

n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.

 I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation.


Let me ask another question. Which of the Authentic/Sahih narrations in Hadith books do you think contradict the Qur'an ? Instead of just repeating yourself please just show a few clear examples instead of repeatedly misquoting the Qur'an.

As for why we believe in the sayings of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) it is because the Qur'an tells us to obey Allah And the Messenger, and because we know that the Prophet (pbuh) understood the Qur'an better than we do especially as he was taught by Gabriel/Jibrail and because he was chosen by Allah.

And you should also know that the same people who narrated and compiled the Qur'an also narrated the Hadith which were written down just one generation after by their students. And yes the Hadith are not as important and perfect as the Qur'an and any Hadith that truely contradicts the Qur'an is either abrogated or is a fabrication.

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram." Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram.  (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)



Edited by Sawtul Khilafah
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nu001
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bullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.

 I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation.


Let me ask another question. Which of the Authentic/Sahih narrations in Hadith books do you think contradict the Qur'an ? Instead of just repeating yourself please just show a few clear examples instead of repeatedly misquoting the Qur'an.

As for why we believe in the sayings of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) it is because the Qur'an tells us to obey Allah And the Messenger, and because we know that the Prophet (pbuh) understood the Qur'an better than we do especially as he was taught by Gabriel/Jibrail and because he was chosen by Allah.

And you should also know that the same people who narrated and compiled the Qur'an also narrated the Hadith which were written down just one generation after by their students. And yes the Hadith are not as important and perfect as the Qur'an and any Hadith that truely contradicts the Qur'an is either abrogated or is a fabrication.

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram. Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram.  (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)

Sawatul

Welcome. Please don't talk in general terms, point out where I have used wrong translation, along with your reference of translation. None of these are my translation. You can consult Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, Muhsin khan, Shakir etc or any translator you can reffer to. If we don't agree we can go back to Arabic for the real meaning.

Come on man; I replied you on your 82 verse, its not relevant here; please don't quote a verse number and tell me to explain it; you better explain how that supports hadith or authenticates hadith or relates to what you want to say; If I disagree i will put my refference and explanation for that, got it dear? I do the same once I quote.

How are you sure that the sentense you quoted as hadith is said by prophet? I am not going into the discussion of it being right/wrong now, first of all can you please tell me the entire link from; who heard it from prophet first and finally who told to the writer?

I possibly dont need to prove that Quran is Allah's word. You prove me that Hadith is prophets word and How do you deal with what Allah has said so clearly in Quran on Hadith and Sunnah? If you can't prove it to be wrong, can there be a discussion after Allah's word?

Salam 



Edited by nu001
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