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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophet’s?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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nu001
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bullet Topic: Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophet’s?
    Posted: 10 March 2007 at 4:01am
Expect Constructive contribution from All brothers and sisters; of all factions (?) of Islam (Nauzubillah, How can Islam have factions?). There was no factions of islam in its glorious days.

We all know that the WHOLE Quran was completely written down & memorized when the prophet Muhammed died. We also know that he left clear instructions to the Quran writer about the position of every sura and verse in the Quran. It was compiled as a book during the time of Omar.
What we now call Prophet Muhammed's hadiths was collected over two hundred years after his death and then allowed to be written years after all the four guided Khalifas refused to permit such writing. The prophet Muhammed himself when he died had no idea about any Hadiths. It was forbidden to write anything else the Prophet said other than the words of Quran. Actually, these hadith books recorded more than one hadiths in which the Prophet ordered the true believers not to write ANYTHING but the Quran.

To understand the reason the hadiths we have today that were attributed to our beloved prophet Muhammed have been so vastly corrupted, I will have to remind you with the "Chinese Whispers". Please try passing 3 lines to 5 people one by one; it will get distorted in 10 mins time.

Many of the narrators of the hadith may have been honest people, but how accurate can a story be narrated across over 210 years and by 6 to 10 different men in a chain???? You must note; Imam Bukhari was born in the year 810 AD and his first hadith book was written in 842 AD. The Shia sunni division was also on finally nailed by Hadith;

We should not be surprised to see God clearly telling us in the Quran to follow NO OTHER HADITH but the Quran.

"Which Hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50

"These are Allah's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than Allah and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless hadith, and thus divert others from the path of Allah without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6

"Allah has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways." 39:23

"Let them produce a hadith like this, if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith; we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44


Does it not make u think? How can the words of men which are dividing Muslims be truth? How a conscious man can follow something where they themselves confess fabrication? Please think.

Bible, Tawrah everything contains some truth; Like hadith might also have something right; so why not follow bible & tawrah as well? They should be ranked even higher as those are polluted but God's words & Hadith polluted and so called prophet's word. There is no proof that those (Hadith) are even Prophet's words/acts.

"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

"Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

"You will find that the Sunnah of Allah is the only Sunnah" (33:62.... 35:43...48:23)
After knowing these, isn't it a grave sin to say that Allah didnt tell everything in Quran and we need Human fabrications like Hadith? There are many more things in Quran which goes against the spirit of Hadith. For a true believer; Allah's words are enough.
Alhamdulillah


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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 7:08am

Originally posted by nu001


The prophet Muhammed himself when he died had no idea about any Hadiths.

What do you base this on ? Where is your evidence ?

Originally posted by nu001

It was forbidden to write anything else the Prophet said other than the words of Quran. Actually, these hadith books recorded more than one hadiths in which the Prophet ordered the true believers not to write ANYTHING but the Quran.

Actually, some say he told the Sahabah to write and others say he told them not to write and the reason for that is that the Prophet (pbuh) did not want his Sahabah to confuse the Hadith with the Qur'an and the ones whom he allowed to write his Hadith may have been people whom the Prophet (pbuh) trusted more (they may have had a better memory) or they may have been people who did not write many Ayahs so they would not confuse them together.

But in any case a lot of Sahabah memorised the Hadith which they narrated to their students and it was during the time of Omar ibn Abdul-Aziz that the students of the Sahabah started to write down the Hadith as it was no longer a danger that they would be confused with the Qur'an.

This was not 200, but 100 years after the time of prophet Mohammad (pbuh).


But later some scholars started to collect these narrations from different people and put them all into a book, and so books were written that had tens of thousands of ahaadith (many of which were unauthentic).

So then came Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim and others who tried to seperate the authentic Hadith from the unauthentic by studying their chains of narration.

Originally posted by nu001


To understand the reason the hadiths we have today that were attributed to our beloved prophet Muhammed have been so vastly corrupted, I will have to remind you with the "Chinese Whispers". Please try passing 3 lines to 5 people one by one; it will get distorted in 10 mins time.

The sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) were important and dear to many of the believers. Although some did forget or confuse them, those with better faith and better memory did not.

Originally posted by nu001


Many of the narrators of the hadith may have been honest people, but how accurate can a story be narrated across over 210 years and by 6 to 10 different men in a chain????

The early Hadith books (many of which still exist) have only 3 or 4 people in their chains while books like Bukhari have 4 or 5 (and most of Bukhari's ahadith can be found in earlier books with shorter chains).

When you have only around 4 trustworthy people in the chain it is highly likely that the Hadith is accurate.

Originally posted by nu001



We should not be surprised to see God clearly telling us in the Quran to follow NO OTHER HADITH but the Quran.

"Which Hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50

"These are Allah's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than Allah and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

Youre using a very illogical arguement here because the Arabic word HADITH means SAYING (intresting how you translated the whole Ayah but not this word!).

So by your logic I should not believe YOUR SAYINGS either. So we should all ignore your post and all other posts and Only read the Qur'an and we should never listen to anyone or read any books other than the Qur'an! When you mistranslate verses and take them out of context you are infact one of those mentioned in Surah aal-Umran ayah 7:

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Originally posted by nu001



Bible, Tawrah everything contains some truth; Like hadith might also have something right; so why not follow bible & tawrah as well?

Because the Hadith were narrated by the same Muslims who compiled the Qur'an and because the Hadith have chains of narration which allows us to distinguish between the authentic and unauthentic.


Originally posted by nu001

After knowing these, isn't it a grave sin to say that Allah didnt tell everything in Quran and we need Human fabrications like Hadith?

Where does the Qur'an say that EVERYTHING is in it ? You mean we dont need books on Biology, Maths, Geography, ... and that instead we should only read the Qur'an ?

Originally posted by nu001

"Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

You have completely misunderstood this Ayah. What it means is that the words of Allah would not run out, that Allah's words are not limited to the 6236 verses of the Qur'an.

If Allah wanted he could have sent down a book which had billions of verses, but then that would have been difficult for us to memorise it, or even compile or read it all. He could have told us every single thing in the whole universe but then that would have made life pointless because the purpose of life is that it is a test.



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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 8:08am
Sawtul Khilafah

Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)  

These are unconfirmed stories that you are telling. Prophet is very important; that's why we believe that the whole quran is Allah's word. It is joke to think that something so important if it is; prophet will not rely on sahabs rather other? Crazy

[Youre using a very illogical arguement here because the Arabic word HADITH means SAYING]  Interesting; the word you are yousing for Hadith what is that word? Hebrew? Allah knew that Hadith will come and some people will cheat like this; divert people by translating that word and make some different thing with exactly the same words 'Hadith' & 'Sunnah' what Allah exactly told to not to make. It only belongs to him.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

You are very funny; this Ayat u quoted, insists you to believe Quran not sayings of Imam, so called Hadith.

Read my quotes from Quran in above post; if complete, detailed, perfect does not mean everything; you mean to say Allah forgot to say something?? (Nauzubillah) Ask any question of islam and i won't need hadith to answer you. Please read my Quotes from Quran carefully.

"Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

 I did not misunderstand at all; you are misundertanding my friend; It means he has written everything in details in this Quran, what he claimed and he did not have shortage of words. No additional explanation is needed. He has completed the religion for us. Did not leave anything to be preached by any human being.

How st**id; do you think Men can write simple things and make life easy for us? Allah makes things easy and simple for us. None can do it better than him. He does not make things difficult it is men who made things difficult. See for urself; what all these Hadith books have done; only created division and confusion in Islam.

My friend; Imam Bukhari wrote the first Hadith book and He was born 198 Hzr, I gave you the dates above; pick up Bukhari or go to wikipedia or anywhere in this world to find out Bukharis life time. its over 200 years; untill then it was in the mouth of some people. May be agents of Jews; coz that's what jews did with their own religion.

Islam passed Golden times, without Hadith and started falling down wards after Hadidth started being more and more accepted by people. See the history and compare. If it was good, it would have taken us up; not down.

Please believe Allahs words not of Men

Salam



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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 8:26am

Sawat: Allah is kind with you; so you reffered this verse: Say with Allah: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Follow only His word

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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 9:42am

It is a fact that some of the Sahabah confused the Qur'an with the Hadith, and had it not been for the Prophet (pbuh) telling them not to write down the Hadith there may have been some serious confusion.

For example in Sahih Bukhari Ibn Abbas narrates a Hadith and then says that he is not sure wether it was a Hadith or a verse of Qur'an.

But ofcourse there are very few such examples, and the reason why is that the Prophet (pbuh) told the Sahabah not to write down his Hadith. But if as you say, the Prophet (pbuh) did not want anyone to follow his Hadith, then he wouldnt have said them !

Youre saying that the Prophet would say things to people and then say "forget about what I said" !!! ???

 That doesnt make any sense.

He simply told them not to write down the Hadith, he did not tell them not to memorise or obey his Hadith. And if you look into history you will see that after hazrat Uthman, the Caliphs and Amirs did not forbid the writing of Hadith, and this was because the Qur'an was compiled during the time of Hazrats Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

 

Those are the limits set by Allah, and whoso obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will make him enter Gardens (in Paradise) underneath which rivers flow, to abide therein And that is the great success.  (Qur'an 4:13)

Why does the verse say obey Allah AND his messenger. Wouldnt it be enough to say "obey Allah" ? Or, "obey Allah through the messenger" ?

It says AND because on the one hand we have the words of Allah (the Quran) and on the other we have the words of the Messenger (Hadith books).

 

Originally posted by nu001

Allah knew that Hadith will come and some people will cheat like this; divert people by translating that word and make some different thing with exactly the same words 'Hadith' & 'Sunnah' what Allah exactly told to not to make. It only belongs to him.

You just dont know what youre talking about. In Arabic, HADITH means SAYING. Any SAYING is HADITH. What youre saying is also HADITH, so by your own logic we should not listen to you!

Originally posted by nu001

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

You are very funny; this Ayat u quoted, insists you to believe Quran not sayings of Imam, so called Hadith.

The verse is warning those who misquote and misinterpret the Qur'an. The 19ners (including you) do this all the time and each one of them seems to have a different interpretation from other 19ners!

 

Originally posted by nu001


Read my quotes from Quran in above post; if complete, detailed, perfect does not mean everything; you mean to say Allah forgot to say something?? (Nauzubillah) Ask any question of islam and i won't need hadith to answer you. Please read my Quotes from Quran carefully.

"Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

 I did not misunderstand at all; you are misundertanding my friend; It means he has written everything in details in this Quran, what he claimed and he did not have shortage of words. No additional explanation is needed. He has completed the religion for us. Did not leave anything to be preached by any human being.

By your logic we would have to say that the Qur'an has never been written down ! Why ? Because even if the oceans were ink and we used them all up we could not write all the words of Allah.

Allah told us whatever He wanted to say. If you think we dont need any book other than the Qur'an, then that is not what the Qur'an is saying and that doesnt make any sense either as Im sure you have read books other than the Qur'an or else you wouldnt even be able to write in English right now!

 

Originally posted by nu001

See for urself; what all these Hadith books have done; only created division and confusion in Islam.

There are also divisions due to different interpretations of the Qur'an and intrestingly the 19ners themselves have broken up into a number of different sects even though their sect has been set ip only recently.

Infact, if you just pick two 19ners you will see they have totally different beliefs and cant agree with eachother on what the Qur'an says.

I have seen 19ners saying that it's ok to have girl friends, or that Satan is the God of this earth, and most (if not all) of them praise George Bush just because he is the 19th Republican president of the United States !!! Im not kidding, check out their official website! They even say all Muslims are disbelievers and that Jihad against Israel and USA is Forbidden and many other things which have Absolutely nothing to do with the Qur'an.

But then when we tell them they say "well this is how I understand the Qur'an "!!! They mistranslate the Qur'an to make it say what they want it to say, so much so that they say the Arabic word DABBAH (creatur/creeper) means ROBOT!!!

Originally posted by nu001

My friend; Imam Bukhari wrote the first Hadith book and He was born 198 Hzr,

You dont even know the history of Hadith. Sahih Bukhari was NOT the first Hadith book, it was simply one of the first AUTHENTIC hadith books, and is believed to be the most Authentic book after the Qur'an.

But before Sahih Bukhari there were many books which were not all Sahih and had a large number of narrations, such as Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal which had 27000 ahaadith (it is still available even on the internet).

Before the Musnad, there was Muwatta Imam Malik. The compilor, Imam Malik, was born in 94 hijrah, a hundred years before Imam Bukhari.

Before that there were also a number of very short hadith books (or maybe they were not books, just pieces of paper) compiled by Ibn Shahab Az-Zuhri and others.

Zuhri was the student of Imam Zeinul-Abedeen, the great Grandson of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the son of Hussein ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib.

You should learn all this instead of just repeating what is written on 19ner websites.

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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

It is a fact that some of the Sahabah confused the Qur'an with the Hadith, and had it not been for the Prophet (pbuh) telling them not to write down the Hadith there may have been some serious confusion.

That's what has been now !! Quran and Hadith is parallel, rathar hadith is more important to many; Quran is in the show case.

If prophets words were important; Allah would have given ways to preserve it.

Yes, I am talking about sahih hadith; You are accepting Bukhari wrote the first sahih hadith; So what's the problem with history.

Please read your post and you will understand what are you telling.

I am inviting you to Allah's words alone; there by you please Allah alone; if Allah is happy on you prophet has no reason to be unhappy.

If you believe in Only Quran; you show faith to Allah and also to Muhammad; As all of it came through mohamamd; if you believe Hadith you believe Bukhari, Shafei, Ahmed, Tirmizi........ on the writers who does not have a mandate from Allah/prophet, to make rules for religions. You read the ayats i reffered from Quran. Many Are not sahi according to the writers themselves, means known to be lie / False in plain language; can you imagine the sin of putting lie in prophets mouth? Will a good man ever do that???

think

Salam



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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 10:53am
Tell me, what is not there in Quran for which we need Hadith?
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bullet Posted: 10 March 2007 at 11:05am

Do you have any prove that the prophet said those?

Come on man; prophet lead the life of a normal human being; obviously was guiding people to follow the quran; If you read the Quran, you will see, that any Question he was asked; he did not answer by himself if there was no verse already on that; then ohi came from Allah. He only told to follow what Allah said in Quran.

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him."69:43-47

 

 

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