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Basics of Islam
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Message Icon Topic: Female circumcision halal?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Alwardah
 
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 6:12am

As Salamu Alaikum

When we have clear evidence from the Sunnah that there is a choice in this matter, there should be no argument. It is left up to the individual which way to choose as both are correct. Why do we need reports to argue a point when we have clear evidence? These reports change with the moods of the people who make them in the first place. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala protect us from such foolishness. Ameen!

Maryah:

Someday the clerics of Islam will look to the West. And will have more respect for the women amongst them. The largest growth in Islam is in the west and it is primarily women. We will someday outnumber you.

I sincerely pray I don’t live to see this day as that will be the end of the Muslims. Who said they (the clerics) don’t respect women. Being a woman I think we must learn to respect ourselves first. Most scholars or students of Islam who quote from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah are accused of not respecting woman. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! Why! because they are not saying things to satisfy our whims and desires but making it very clear what is in the authentic sources, so we don't like it and accuse them of not respecting us.  

“They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months. Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.'' And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 217)

Today the Disbelievers are using every mean to fight us, so that we disunite and turn our backs to Islam. WAKE UP dear brothers and sisters. Unity is strength - the Battle of Badr- remember. Unity

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala protect us from the evils within ourselves and the evils around us. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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rami
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 7:23am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

wa alaikum assalam

well said sister.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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abuzaid
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 9:07am

Originally posted by rami


That approach would be disastrous. Do you know which sects in Islam do this?

Kahrijites where one, Wahabie's another but they are moving away from this extremest view and adopting many things from the Hanbali Madhhab but are still far from this though.
As per my knowledge Wahabie's do not believe so. Yes, only in the matters of worships they hold that" Everything is prohibited unless proven from Quran and sunnah"

Assalamualaikum WRWB.



Edited by abuzaid
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rami
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 9:24am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

I honestly cant remember the way the scholar i spoke to explained it but it was more apparent in there earlier days than it is now.

It isnt as explicit now days but it is apparent in there fatwas and ideology like an underlaying mentality left over from the older days, wahhabi ideology has not been consistent over the years as they never attempted to form a madhhab. Numerous times i have argued with wahabi br's over various topics only to see them state that something was not permissible becoue it wasnt specifically mentioned in the Quran or sunnah.

I cant remember specifics of the top of my head at the moment but if i do i will be certain to let you know.

Yes for things like worship the opposite is absolutely true without exception, all madhhabs hold to this principle but this isnt what i am referring to. More than likely they used this principle [haram until proven permissible] applied to acts of worship alone and expanded it to the wider areas of fiqh allahu allam.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:38am

If I were to flatter you with a long drawn out post in response to what you've written we would be going in circles. What this whole discussion amounts to a simple matter of opinion. You're right I do not agree with the Madhabs and maybe it's because I do not follow one. I do not believe in following jurisprudences especially when all four [no matter how similar they are] have difference of opinion on matters. I am one of the opinion that there should be a unified belief [aside from the unified belief inOneness of God etc]. These same Madhabs you speak of Rami also spawn individuals who believe that women are second class citizens and who believe in the excision of a woman's clitoris.

Obviously Rami unless it is mandated in Islam you do not believe in the objectivity in science therefore, it remains to be Kufr practice if it is done outside of Islam am I correct?

You say that my Arabic [or lack thereof] is insufficient in understanding various translations of Quranic doctrine as well as Hadith. Whatever, that may be true that my Arabic is not up to par. but that kind of comment could easily be mistaken as an excuse for an individual [such as yourself] inability to logically prove something is reasonable. Rami, you have not proven that medically speaking the excision of tissue from the hood of the clitorous is beneficial to the woman. I've given you a link to a legitimate medical website for you to see for yourself as well as links made by Muslim physicians who, are using their arguments against Female Genital Cutting from the interpreted Hadith.

The subjective position you hold is obvious and since you have failed to objectively prove anything. I have shown the outlining view of FGC but if you want I can prove how this practice is not a benefit to women, are then going to respond that the woman's feeling in this matter irrelevant? You said that my reverence is like that of a "westerner" obviously you cannot overstep my nationality and rather, call me a Muslim you identify me first by my nationality and emphasize that rather than me being a Muslim. It doesn't surprise me anyway I think it was you that made the dumb comment about there being a difference between Eastern and western Muslims right? Yes I'm confident in my knowledge because I'm working hard to establish myself. I'm sorry you do not believe in confidence but that is your choice.

Anyway your opinion is yours on this matter.

 

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fatima
 
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:21am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Originally posted by Israfil

Anyway your opinion is yours on this matter.

 

Yes brother that is the whole point, in this particular issue it is the opinion of one of great scholars of islam who has derived a law from Sunnah. Now other scholars have given their rulings too so it is a personal choice to follow whichever ruling you feel comfortable with.

Thing people keep mentioning 'science' and 'proving your point through logic'. What is science and logic? something that a human can prove, right? There was a time when 'Great scientists' believed sun is stationary, Holy Quran said, 'it is moving in its orbit'. So what happened? divine knowledge has always had a supremecy and it always will stay this way.

In today's world there are plenty of scientific researches going on. One would tell you oil is good, the other would say pure butter is. One would tell you the advantages of double bond strands and other would tell you how it increases the chances of having cancer with all the free radicals lurking around. I can myself post plenty of articles on how we muslim torture an animal while slaughtering and scientifically how beneficial alcohol or pork is.

So no matter how many reports you bring or how good you can prove your point, if it contradicts a proven sunnah, you are in the wrong till the day we meet our Lord.

Religion gives us choices and that is mercy of our Most Merciful Lord. Taking a choice is totally upto individuals but not ridiculing the one that you don't prefer for yourself.

I am now closing this thread because it is not serving any purpose.

wassalam



Edited by fatima
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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rami
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:57am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Khair insha allah,

I do not believe in following jurisprudences especially when all four [no matter how similar they are] have difference of opinion on matters. I am one of the opinion that there should be a unified belief [aside from the unified belief inOneness of God etc].

Diference of opinion is a rahma from allah which he afforded us, this is one reason why rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] used to stay silent on matters and chose not to answer them. He would also tell his followers that the jews used to ask there prophet to many questions [as the sahabah where also doing at the time] and it brought them ruin as they could not handle the responsibility of knowing so much and acting upon it all.

You dont really know why there are differences between the madhhabs to have an opinion about why there should be only one.

These same Madhabs you speak of Rami also spawn individuals who believe that women are second class citizens and who believe in the excision of a woman's clitoris.

This to me and any other person who is familiar with Shariah law indicates you dont even know why four madhhabs exist or what they actualy do. Principles of law do not produce individuals who look down on women i would like to  see you establish this as fact. Differences in legal principles is why we have four madhhabs diferences in opinion and interpretation is why we have more than one ruling on a particular matter within a madhhab.

You see Islam is diverse and hardly authoritarian as you so blindly claim.

Just becouse a shaykh happens to belong to a madhhab does not mean he only holds opinions of the madhhab no scholar is infallible and for you to place together all the scholars of a madhhab spanning the period of 1400 years on the words of a handful of individuals is low.


Obviously Rami unless it is mandated in Islam you do not believe in the objectivity in science therefore, it remains to be Kufr practice if it is done outside of Islam am I correct?

Actualy i thought i already clarified this point, "
the natural state of matters is permissibility until it can be established that it is prohibited."

You are the person trying to say female circumcision is not a part of islam.

You say that my Arabic [or lack thereof] is insufficient in understanding various translations of Quranic doctrine as well as Hadith. Whatever, that may be true that my Arabic is not up to par. but that kind of comment could easily be mistaken as an excuse for an individual [such as yourself] inability to logically prove something is reasonable.

No i have stated the legal principles indicating the way in which our prophets words should be taken maybe i wasn't clear enough, "
His commenting it self is approval his silence is also considered approval and acceptance, only his open and clear condemnation is taken as prohibition." this is becouse had someone said something reprehensible in front of him he would not of hesitated to correct them, rasul allah would not stay silent on an error he was obliged to guide people and help them.

Rami, you have not proven that medically speaking the excision of tissue from the hood of the clitorous is beneficial to the woman.

I dont need to prove benefit just harm, only when something is harmfull can it be against islamic law. No one has established the Islamic view is harmfull.

"the natural state of matters is permissibility", until harm can be confirmed, a good example of this is smoking at first the scholars had said it was makruh but when the scientific community established that it caused so much dammage to the body they then declared it to be Haram.

Of course ignorant muslims who know nothing about islam simply thought they had just changed the law.

I've given you a link to a legitimate medical website for you to see for yourself as well as links made by Muslim physicians who, are using their arguments against Female Genital Cutting from the interpreted Hadith.

When performed properly as per islamic dictates there is no harm but when it is not mutalation occurs and in this matter i agree with them, they have simply lumped all formes of female circumsision into one basket and labeled it all the same out of there own ignorance. A muslim medical physician is not a muslim scholar he is not qualafied to speak about islamic law and my argument would be just as valid as his, but when comparing it to that of a madhhab whose views i am stating the physician may as well be talking about aliens on mars.


The subjective position you hold is obvious and since you have failed to objectively prove anything.

I dont need to prove anything you do, all i need to do is establish the matter is part of islamic law and that is enough.

I have shown the outlining view of FGC but if you want I can prove how this practice is not a benefit to women,

Not being a benefit and being harmfull are two different things, simply becouse you may or may not prove something is of material use or benefit does not decrease from the religious responsibility. Do you know all there is to know about creation or harm and benefit no but we still are obliged to do things in the sunnah, it is part of obeying Allah.

are then going to respond that the woman's feeling in this matter irrelevant?

A muslim women has no trouble following the sunnah if that is what she believes to be true and her responsibility, muslims put there religion above there selfs this is our quality which is instilled in us as practicing muslims and the result of our worshiping Allah.

You said that my reverence is like that of a "westerner" obviously you cannot overstep my nationality and rather,

Most scholars i listen to are of a western background not arabic well except for one. I dont even identify my self as Lebanese and am against any form of nationalism.

call me a Muslim you identify me first by my nationality and emphasize that rather than me being a Muslim. It doesn't surprise me anyway I think it was you that made the dumb comment about there being a difference between Eastern and western Muslims right?

According to this simple logic as soon as a person says the shahadah his level of ihsan increases phenomenally he becomes a wali of allah perfect in almost every way and destined for the highest levels of jannah.

I was referring to you not having yet shed your past and embarrassed true ibaddah of allah, it is a journey and a path which one increases himself in. Shahhadah is only the beginning of becoming a muslim not the final stage.

Our prophet said we are only as good as the last verse we recite before death, do you understand what he meant by this?

Yes I'm confident in my knowledge because I'm working hard to establish myself. I'm sorry you do not believe in confidence but that is your choice.

There is no room for I in la illaha illah llah.

Anyway your opinion is yours on this matter.

no its the opinion of Islams Great mujtahid Imams.

---------------------------------------------------------

sorry sister was typing while you closed this so it posted anyway i guess.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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