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amah
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by aka2x2

 

the Prophet never claimed he was infallible. In fact there are verses in the Quran attesting to his human fallibility. So, I too would have asked him to reconsider.

 

prophets of Allah are guided by Allah. they do not commit sins but on rare occasions if they have erred, Allah has corrected them right then and there. You think allah will allow injustice to people in the form of an incorrect hadith? You think the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam ,naozubillah , made a mistake with this hadith? are you aware of what you and br jamal are saying?

 

 

 

I was born in a Muslim country. However, I did not even know what female circumcision was until I was accused of practicing it in the West. Frankly, if this practice is isolated to such a small group of Muslims, it is very likely to be cultural and not religious, even though its practitioners believe otherwise.

 

There are many things in sunnah which many muslims have not heard of because of ignorance. In fact many muslims are not even aware of things from the quran.

 

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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amah
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:19pm
Just to make it clear, I agree with jamal badawi's point of view.
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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crasss
 
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2007 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Showkat

The topic of female circumcision has always been controversial and commonly accepted as being a cultural practice and considered haram as it mutilates the woman.

If the people arguing against female circumcision did only that, the discussion would be a lot easier. These people carry with them, however, an entire, rather dangerous agenda, which is less innocent than just arguing against female circumcision.

I think the proponents of the practice may be afraid that they cannot give in to this point in the agenda, because that would open the door for the entire agenda.

It is rather a unfortunate, but nevertheless political fact of life, that first this dangerous agenda has to disappear, before more innocent arguments could be accepted.

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rami
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bullet Posted: 13 April 2007 at 2:03am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Jamal wrote;

If I lived in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and he really did say that, I would ask him to reconsider, as females lose sensitivity in the clitoris as well as the general unpleasant weirdness of the operation.

After which sayidinah Abu Bakr, Umar or Ali would ask rasul allah's permission to cut of your head as you have just challenged him directly.

any person with a sense of respect for our prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] would ask him to clarify himself before correcting himself.

Regarding your second uneducated statement i will repeat what Sister amah said "
genital mutilation and circumcision are two entirely different things. get this into your heads for Allah's sake."

umsami wrote;

We are not supposed to do something that is harmful, right? And the effects of female circumcision are extensive--including death to the girl undertaking it as well as to any future children she may have. (See the WHO study done in 2006).

I have yet to see a study which makes the clear and obvious distinction between mutilation and
circumcision. [read this part carefully] Usually they define what they mean by mutilation and in this they clearly say the removal of [or in part] of the clitoris, now read the words of our prophet CAREFULLY and tell me where he mentions touching it in any way what so ever.

Let's also not forget that to call somebody a "circumciser of women" was an insult in the Prophet's (saws) time.  If it was a virtuous thing--then it wouldn't be an insult, right?

Firstly using one hadith to clearly contradict another hadith and simply ignore the later is not permissible in our deen and is tantamount to accusing rasul allah of contradicting himself especially if both ahadith have no serious weakness in them
.

Secondly Any hadith in which rasul allah gives clear instruction on how to perform something [as is the case here] can not be negated by even a verse in the Quran let alone a Urf [custom] of the time which you are Quoting. The Quran would condition the hadith and limit its application in some respect, an apparent contradiction between the two must be explained and not simply ignored.


Islam is also a religion that encourages mutual sexual pleasure--and by removing any portion of a woman's clitoris, one removes her pleasure... thus harming the success and happiness of the marriage.

no part of the clitoris is touched hence no sexual pleasure is reduced. You must differentiate between the local practice and clear instruction of our prophet. The practice of a people do not make there actions islamicly sound simply becouse they are popular among a people.


Also...it predates Islam and was practiced in Pharaonic times and in the Jahiliya.  The practice is limited (thank God) in the Muslim world to mainly Egypt and other African countries.  It is practiced among Muslims and Christians--and is not an exclusively Muslim practice.

So are many other practices such as fasting, giving zakkat, purifying your self etc etc Islam came to confirm the truthful aspects of prior religions and in this respect rasul allah gave clear instruction, how on earth can you or any other person posting here simply ignore an authenticated hadith.

To me this is mind boggling, how people can do this and still pretend to be talking about Islam, its like you saying this and this are a part of islam while rasul allah said something completely different.

I am sorry if my words seem harsh i dont intend insult but this is not a small matter either.


Finally, many Muslim scholars met at Al-Azhar last November and declared that this practice is not Islamic and a crime against humanity. http://www.yoursdaily.com/world_news/middle_east/islam_outla ws_female_genital_mutilation
"The religous scholars at the conference were the following: Grand Mufti and Patron of Al-Azhar: Prof. Dr. Ali Goma'a; the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar: Prof. Dr. Mohamed Sayed Tantawi; the Minister of Religion of Egypt: Prof. Dr. Mahmoud Hamdi Zakzouk; Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi from Qatar; Sheikh Hissein Hassan Abkar from Chad; Imam Mahammadou Diallo from Mali; Imam Bal El Bechir from Mauritania; Sheikh Mohamed Darassa from Ethiopia, and Imam Tarafa Baghrajati from Austria. Reports were given by medical experts from Egypt, Ethiopia, and Germany."

again that is all well and good but look at there definition of the term no doubt it would clearly mention the removal of the clitoris. There is clear confusion between the arabic and english i have seen these type of documents beffore.

Further you should also understand it would be Kufar in Islam to declare what rasull allah said to be haram they would need to prove this hadith is fabricated which has not been done.

More importantly Azhar is a shafii university, there is a valid ruling in this madhhab which states the matter is wajib while there is another ruling stating it is not [shafii's are permitted to choose either], neither of which actually say it is haram, the point Being none of these shaykhs above are mujtahid Imams [ie qualafied enough] to be making Ijtihad [new rulings] on this matter.

aka2x2 wrote

I agree with Jamal 100%.


Read what jamal baddawi wrote more carefully he doesnt actualy say this practice is haram [you may get that impression from the article i understand] he only says there is no basis for it to be widespread which arguably means nothing really as people are free to choose which authentic rulings they wish to follow.

 

We seem to forget two important issues. First, there is not total agreement on authenticity of all Hadiths among all Muslims.


this is a general statement and not relevant to this point as we are talking about the authenticity of one particular hadith on which you have to comment.


It is wrong to call another Muslim a Kafir simply because he doubts the authenticity of a particular Hadith.


This is correct as his doubting the authenticity for valid reasons is acceptable but who then called any person a kafir for doing this.


Alternately who proved this particular hadith is not authentic?


Second, even if the Hadith were authentic, the Prophet never claimed he was infallible.


You are correct, Allah himself said he was infallible in the Quran.


In fact there are verses in the Quran attesting to his human fallibility. So, I too would have asked him to reconsider.

 

Authubillah, there is a clear distinction between making a mistake in choosing one path over another and making a mistake in Islamic rullings you would be committing Kufr to claim the second. Allah himself says in the Quran nothing he speaks is from his own desire and he is Guided to speak.


Abasa wa tawallah  is referring to two paths rasul allah had to choose from not an Islamic ruling in which Allah has Guaranteed his Infallibility on.


Allah testifies in the Quran that he delivered the message correctly, please be carefull with your words.


Abeer wrote;

My Malay sisters tell me that in Malaysia, if a woman is not circumcised she cannot be burried in a Muslim cemetary.

This would be correct becouse malaysia is majority shafii madhhab and in that madhhab it is a wajib act to do. Not being
circumcised is a clear and open [upon death] act of not following your religion, but i am speaking generaly here and not becouse i have true knowledge of the situation there, there are abuses in many areas and the point about marriage i have no clue why that may be.

This does seem to be an excess any way you look at it and not from the deen as there are two clear rullings in the madhhab to choose from, also how on earth can they know you are shafii if you dont tell them not all malaysians are shafii there are hanafi's for example and in that madhhab it is not wajib [obligatory].

Showkat wrote:

The topic of female circumcision has always been controversial and commonly accepted as being a cultural practice and considered haram as it mutilates the woman.

See everything i have written above clearly you are wrong.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Abeer23
 
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bullet Posted: 13 April 2007 at 6:13am
Originally posted by Aminah07

WAS,

so is it required or not?

As salamu alaikum,

No sister, it is not required.   

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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 13 April 2007 at 9:06am

Since Rami refuses to deny that female "circumcision" is wrong let's see the list, oh and since this is a scientific fact this is not religiously biased. Before I commence I'm acknowledging that we are discussing not just the act initself but what defines this act. It is obvious that Rami has a problem with the terminology given to female circumcision as many have referred it as female mutilation (or female genital cutting) I would say the latter definition is more appropriate whereas the former may seem pejorative regardless because it is practiced widely by cultures it is not necessarily mandated by medical experts.

Also, female circumcision despite it being interpreted in Hadith as religious mandate has been practiced before/during/after the Prophet Muhmmad. So it would be nothing new to say that this is an acceptable practice. But this practice is not something that is biologically helpful to women note the following:

When we discuss female circumcision we are discussing clitoridectomy which is: the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood The clitoral hood is the female prepuce, which is homologous to the foreskin of the male (See online ref: http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?clitoridectomy)

Believe it or not there are two types of female circumcision: Excision and Fibulation.

Excision refers to the surgical removal of tissue (such as the prepuce and the clitoris) plus the partial or total removal of the labia minora, the inner lips of the female vulva (See online ref:http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=Excision) also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excision)

Of course the above type is associated with the Sunna tradition but the second type refers to the sewing together of the leftover labia minora epidermis, which contains sweat glands, a buildup of sweat and urine in the closed off space beneath this closed space can lead to urinary infection, septicemia, hemorrhaging and cyst formation which is of course cancerous (See ref:http://www.cirp.org/pages/female/dirie1/).

The other type is called infibulation which is extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora, leaving a raw open wound. The labia majora are then held together using thorns or stitching and the girl's legs are tied together for two - six weeks, to prevent her from moving and allow the healing of the two sides of the vulva (See  ref: Pieters, Guy, M.D.; Albert B. Lowenfels, M.D., F.A.C.S. (April 1977). "Infibulation in the Horn of Africa" New York State Journal of Medicine 77 (6): 729-731). 

In addition Nothing remains of the normal anatomy of the genitalia, except for a wall of flesh from the pubis down to the anus except a small opening in the inferior portion of the vulva to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass through. Sounds awful? There is more. Female genital cutting is today mainly practiced in African countries. It is common in Senegal in West Africa to Somalia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania. An estimated of more than 95% of all women have undergone this procedure. It is also practiced by some groups in the Arabian peninsula, especially among a minority (20%) in Yemen (See ref: Hedayat, Kamyar M.; Pirzadeh, Roya (October 2001). "Issues in Islamic Biomedical Ethics: A Primer for the Pediatrician". Pediatrics 108 (4): 965-971. Retrieved on 2006-10-02

There only reaons I could list that FGC can be justifiable is:

A) customary tradition in which female genital cutting is seen as a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood.

B) A cultural practice that sometimes has a religious identification (a female's honor is a reflection on her entire family, and believing it is God's will).

C) Social conformity

Of course the opinions of Muslims that support Female Genital Cutting are few and is not widely accepted by Muslims. Like I mentioned before Female Genital Cutting predates Islam but was also practiced during the time of the Prophet. The support by those Muslims who believe in Female Genital Cutting are those who believe in the mildest form of cutting which, of course many site the Hadith by the Prophet:

a woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. Muhammad said to her, 'Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband." Umm 'Atiyyah; Abu Dawud, al-Bayhaq. Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41: General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab).University of Southern California. Retrieved on 2007 March 27.

Many schools of thought which order the "slight trimming" of the hood of the clitoris do so in means of enhancing sexual pleasure. But most Muslims do no support Female Genital Cutting.

"Among practicing cultures, FGC is most commonly performed between the ages of four and eight, but can take place at any age from infancy to adolescence. Prohibition has led to FGC going underground, at times with people who have had no medical training performing the cutting without anesthetic, sterilization, or the use of proper medical instruments. The procedure, when performed without any anesthetic, can lead to death through shock from immense pain or excessive bleeding. The failure to use sterile medical instruments may lead to infections and the spread of disease, such as HIV, especially when the same instruments are used to perform procedures on multiple women." (See online ref: http://www.cirp.org/pages/female/dirie1/)

Other serious long term health effects are also common. These include urinary and reproductive tract infections, caused by obstructed flow of urine and menstrual blood, various forms of scarring and infertility. Of course there are other parts I'd like to add but I'd like for us to sit on this issue for now.

 

 

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rami
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bullet Posted: 13 April 2007 at 5:25pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Israfil does your mind differentiate between the words of our prophet and what these Kufar intentionally lump together with mutilation. This seems to be the only way for you or any other person of making what is Islamicly sound seem to be wrong.

I am talking pure islamic law i dont care what people practice [most of the countries where the clitoris is removed are non islamic countries, but they/you fail to make that distinction], our prophet instructed on how to do this so unless you want to also deny that learn how to differentiate between issues.

Not you or these so called "majority" muslims are in a position to speak for Islam.

You would be better served openly and clearly saying "i dont agree with Islamic law", i wont argue with you at that point but merely say that is your prerogative.

From, The Reliance of the Traveler which is A summation of Imam Nawawi's [do you know who he is?] rulings in the Shafii Madhhab.

""20.4.3  Circumcision is Obligatory
Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (bazr) of the clitoris but not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert.

Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but Prophetic practice [ie sunnah/my insertion], while Hanafis consider it a courtesy to the husband.""

A ruling on the matter exists in all madhhabs [three are mentioned above] this is an undeniable fact, the international community and so called modernist muslims have no place even commenting on the legality of the issue from an islamic perspective.

If they would like to invent there own religion they are welcome to but Muslims prostrate to Allah.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 13 April 2007 at 11:32pm

Rami,

It appears that ignorance is bliss and your post is riddled with it. Most Muslims and by most i'm not referring to the authorities of the madhabs do not practice female genital cutting. Again, this practice is mainly for the enhancement of sexual pleasure according to some of the schools of thought. And yes my mind differentiates between what the "Sunnah circumcision" states and what is stated by the medical community.

when I said FGC or Female Genital Cutting I was referring to three types which the third would be consider mutilation which is the removal of the external tissue of the clitoris as well as some of the internal tissue. I never said the Islamic practice was the third type if you read I mentioned that in Islamic practice, those that do practice it mainly do the "slight trimming" of the clitoris. Even if you cite the Hadith there is no explicit wording from the Prophet which states "Females must be circumcised." Only authoritarians do and most of the scholars in Islam are in disagreement over this issue. The issue regarding female circumcision is not even an Islamic practice when in fact it predates the Prophet so its not even an original practice. The act of female circumcision is purely cultural not religious. It is thought that female circumcision to have started in 163 B.C.E in Egypt which greeks had written about young girls in egypt who were circumcisied.

Here is the question if a young Muslim girl gets her clitoris slightly trimmed by a qualified Muslim how do we know that this Muslim is qualified? Obviously she cannot get it done in the States as well as other countries so where and who determines these qualifications? Even if the procedure is done according to the Sunnah does this muslim have knowledge regarding surgical procedures? There are many questions. Even if the surgery is low risk there is still risk!

I know you love to criticize me because I challenge authority because i find authority to be as fallible as those who follow authority. You however are blinded by your own zeal cannot possibly recognize the illogical nature of female genital cutting. When the prophet commented on the woman who was performing the circumcision he did so with the intention make sure the young girl was not being harmed and he made a comment based on what was acceptable at that time. Since the prophet was indeed human he was involved in his own culture at that time so I wouldn't expect any individual to be so isolated from their culture simply because they receive revelations from God.

Again I said nothing about Muslims cutting off the clitoris however they do trim the clitoris and that is a fact.

 

 

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