Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Authenticity of the Koran Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
Aboo Yacob
 
Starter
Starter
Avatar

Joined: 04 February 2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Quote Aboo Yacob Replybullet Topic: The Authenticity of the Koran
    Posted: 05 February 2007 at 1:57pm
A Dialogue between a Muslim and Christian...
The Oneness of God Part 1
( renamed "Proofs for the Authenticity of the Koran" by Ehab )
KingReef says:
How are you doing?
ehab shehata says:
Fine
KingReef says:
Good, shall we proceed?
ehab shehata says:
Yeah, lets
KingReef says:
The Oneness of God
KingReef says:
Would you like to start, or shall I?
ehab shehata says:
I'll go ahead
KingReef says:
Cool.
ehab shehata says:
To begin, we must look at the affair from beginning to end
ehab shehata says:
meaning, most important to least important
KingReef says:
Okay.
ehab shehata says:
in this religion, of Islaam- There is one aspect which if it is complete, then glad tiding's and if it is incomplete, then i hope allah has mercy upon that one- this aspect is known, as monotheism, or in the arabic language, Tawheed . To show you the importance of this 'Tawheed' ... to enter islaam a person actually has to say 'kalimat al tawheed' -the word of tawheed which is, "Ash hadu an la ilah ila allah, wa ash hadu an mohammadan rasoolallah"
I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship, except Allah, and Mohammed is his Messenger. This is the fundamental and basis of the entire religion
KingReef says:
If you will pause for a moment. Are you saying that you also worship Mohammed?
ehab shehata says:
no, 'bear witness that mohammed is his messenger'
ehab shehata says:
"There is noone worthy of worship, EXCEPT Allah'
KingReef says:
Got it.
ehab shehata says:
and even our prophet ordered us to say when we mention him, "Say Mohammed the slave Allah" we know he said this, because he feared that the masses would take him as a God as what happened with Jesus, peace be upon him. To continue-
KingReef says:
Do you mean "Say Mohammed the slave of Allah" ?
ehab shehata says:
Yes, 'Slave' meaning slave or servant, because a slave or servant is obedient to their Lord, as were all the Prophets, the word Abd means slave, and Mohammed told us, 'The most beloved names in this religion are AbdAllah and Abd Ar Rahman [Slave of Allah] and [Slave of the Most Merciful] respectively.
KingReef says:
Your statement was missing 'of' - the preposition then?
ehab shehata says:
oh my apologies.
KingReef says:
Okay, please continue.
ehab shehata says:
yes i meant slave of Allah, thank you.
ehab shehata says:
As i mentioned, the religion of Islaam is based upon and everything is built from this monotheism, which is to single Allah out for worship alone. For this reason, the religion is called Islaam, based from the word islam[submission] not salem[peace], the word islam[submission] means complete submission to the Commands and Prohibitions of Allah the Most Merciful, submitting to Him completely, this is why when a Muslim is called 'Slave of Allah' it is considered a commendable thing. The word Islaam[Submission], shows the fundamental importance of monotheism, Islaam unlike anyother religion, makes a great claim- Islaam- The religion of all the Prophets [From Adam to Mohammed peace be upon them], a couple of proofs for this.

ehab shehata says:
First, in Judaism, the Jew's worshipped Elah- or Allah, both have the same linguistic meaning- Elah[The God]- Allah[The God]

This idea of all the Prophets, being 'Muslims' [Submitters to Allahs Commands] is shown, ""And strive hard in God's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islâmic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islâm), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship... it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islâmic Monotheism). It is He (God) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'ân), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind! So perform As­Salât (Make the prayers), give Zakât[The poordue charity] and hold fast to Allâh [i.e. have confidence in God, and depend upon Him in all The Abrahamic religions... as we call them are known to be Monotheistic, as Abraham as a monotheistic
the three religions derived from the progeny of Abraham are Judaism Christianity and Islaam
ehab shehata says:
One moment.
KingReef says:
Okay.
ehab shehata says:
Okay, Abraham when he is amongst his people before he was a Prophet, he saw his people worshipping Idols, he shunned this action and knew in his heart this was false. He would look at the sun, and say "Is this my Lord?" Then the sun would set, and he would say, "My Lord does not set". Then he would look at the moon, and say "Is this my Lord?" Then after it he would say "My Lord does not set"
ehab shehata says:
The same with the stars, until finally, Allah revealed to Abraham, and said to him one word, "ISLAM [SUBMIT!]" , and Abraham said in answer, " I have Submitted, to the Rabb(Maintainer, sustainer, creator, master and governor) of the Worlds"
KingReef says:
Okay.
ehab shehata says:
You can go ahead
KingReef says:
I am also a monotheist. I believe that there is one God, though mystery surrounds the nature of God.
KingReef says:
As the Bible is read, the revelation of God is revealed as being more complex than human minds seem to be able to grasp. For centuries the scholars debated this Elohim of a God as to the proper way to address the issue. One of the attempts at describing God was to refer to the 'plurality of God' as being triune, or 'trinity'. That is: One God with three distinct persons.

For centuries the scholars debated this Elohim of a God as to the proper way to address the issue. One of the attempts at describing God was to refer to the 'plurality of God' as being triune, or 'trinity'. That is: One God with three distinct persons.
ehab shehata says:
God is... skitzophrenic?
KingReef says:
No. That would mean that they were in conflict, or had distanced themselves from themselves. or themself.
ehab shehata says:
This theology doesnt hold water.
KingReef says:
Maybe it doesn't with you, but it does with me. The proof is axiomatic. I am prepared to give you examples.
ehab shehata says:
axiomatic... i could look that up but for the benefit of everyone...
KingReef says:
Please do, I will wait,.
ehab shehata says:
Axiomatic- pertaining to or of the nature of an axiom; self-evident; obvious.
KingReef says:
Yes. That's what I am saying.
ehab shehata says:
Continue, but Reef
ehab shehata says:
i want proof i can tell a 6 year old girl and she wouldn't have difficulty with it
ehab shehata says:
and a 80 year old man, and he wouldnt have difficulty with it
ehab shehata says:
it is the religion of ALL mankind after all.
ehab shehata says:
hence it should be simple
KingReef says:
I would disagree, it is not for all mankind. It's for those that God gives the eyes to see, and the ears to hear.
KingReef says:
Please ask as much as you want, I am prepared for any sort of thing, God is with me.
KingReef says:
I will give you some of those axiomatic examples.
ehab shehata says:
May i give one of my own first?
KingReef says:
Please do.
ehab shehata says:
To claim in this day, my Book is the Divine Revelation, is as you said before... beating a dead horse- i will give an axiomatic example showing the undoubtable, undeniable, and clear evidence that the Koran is TRULY the word of God, revealed to his Slave Mohammed, in the Koran- Believe it or not the 4 stages of child birth in the mothers womb are explained in detail, each stage is precise- To...
ehab shehata says:
To the extent that the leading modern day expert in embyrology after reading the Koran, changed a book he had after making discoveries from reading the Koran- These things were discovered 30-50 years ago or less! A desert man 1400 years ago, with no scientific training, and more clearly not even a microscope [ developed 200 years ago], came up with this? Fear God.
KingReef says:
Please give your verses.
ehab shehata says:
okay.
ehab shehata says:
Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allâh, the Best of creators.
O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will). And We cause whom We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as infants, then (give you growth) that you may reach your age of full strength. And among you there is he who dies (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the miserable old age, so that he knows nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down water (rain) on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells and puts forth every lovely kind (of growth).
ehab shehata says:
These verses truth was testified to first and foremost by expert embryologists you will actually see in the book of Keith Moore, many references to the Qur'aan in a certain conference, he referenced it and claimed it truth to the extent, that the next day on the front page of news papers. There numerous scientific truths in the Koran, to show every man and woman who have the ability to contemplate the truthfulness of it
KingReef says:
Would you say that the verse you showed me was well translated into English?
ehab shehata says:
Yeah, let me read it in arabic first- I also go to mention that the people who translate the Qur'aan do it for the benefit of the Muslims, not for any trickery or such yeah, it is
KingReef says:
It sounds like there's this flesh, and then it turns into bones, and then there's flesh to cover it later.
ehab shehata says:
No
KingReef says:
It sounds like there's this flesh, and then it turns into bones, and then there's flesh to cover it later.
ehab shehata says:
The translations of the Qur'aan are accurate, due to one reason: The translations are mainly for Muslims, who cannot read Arabic, but for example me as an arab hearing that verse i understand the meaning.
KingReef says:
Yet it is accurate as you say?
ehab shehata says:
Yes
ehab shehata says:
Actually, theres a story to this.
KingReef says:
Well, where to go with that?!
ehab shehata says:
One man he was a scientist
ehab shehata says:
Nonmuslim okay?
KingReef says:
Okay.
ehab shehata says:
he didnt like reading the translation, so he went to an Arab country and learned the arabic language, he than began reading the Koran, after having learned the Arabic, he accepted Islaam. he said, " I know this is the word of God "
ehab shehata says:
Reef, a clear evidence has come to you, and there are many more which i could bring
KingReef says:
Okay, on that point I would like to add this:
KingReef says:
From what I understand about the fetal development, flesh is formed, and the bone structure follows still inside in normal cases. It does not form flesh that turns into bones, and then is recovered by flesh later.
ehab shehata says:
The man who made the statements concerning the Qur'aan is the world expert in embryology. This is the reason he was called in to interpret the verses
KingReef says:
So it seems that he would know that.
ehab shehata says:
Yeh, and as we can say, he was neutral, he was just there for science
KingReef says:
Yeah, well . . . shall we continue?
ehab shehata says:
To read more on this go to: http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm
or http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=47&chapter=1
ehab shehata says:
Okay. You must be begining to have an itch though... "These muslim guys... they might have something"
KingReef says:
What does the word elohim mean to you?
ehab shehata says:
Its a jewish word... i wouldnt know
KingReef says:
To your last statement, you missed the point of what I am saying.
KingReef says:
Not Elohim, but about the fetal development
KingReef says:
I do not believe that if the verse out of the Koran was accurately translated, that it was right about fetal development.
KingReef says:
IF it was accurately trranslated.
ehab shehata says:
Reef. Okay
ehab shehata says:
I will bring another example
ehab shehata says:
There is a verse in the Qur'aan, "And have created the mountains as pegs"
KingReef says:
Okay.
ehab shehata says:
Scientists, if you look in their books speaking about mountains, you will find that they describe mountains as being pegs, or a similar description- this is because, a mountain although it seems gigantic the majority of the mountain is actually below ground, just the same as a peg
ehab shehata says:
To read more about: http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-b.htm
ehab shehata says:
That shows it very clearly
KingReef says:
Okay, thank you. I think that I should go ahead now. About elohim, and I will give a source, that will be que that it is over, okay?
ehab shehata says:
Continue
KingReef says:
"ELOHIM" (or Elohay) is the first name for God found in the Bible, and it's used throughout the Old Testament over 2,300 times. Elohim comes from the Hebrew root meaning "strength" or "power", and has the unusual characteristic of being plural in form.
ehab shehata says:
BUT...
ehab shehata says:
you just told me God was One
KingReef says:
In Genesis 1:1, we read, "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth." Right from the start, this plural form for the name of God is used to describe the One God, a mystery that is uncovered throughout the rest of the Bible.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/names-of-god.htm

ehab shehata says:
with three distinct... nonetheless one
ehab shehata says:
Elohim is plural as you say, then that is more then one
KingReef says:
I'm sorry, I was still giving the text from the source. I am finished now.
ehab shehata says:
Continue
KingReef says:
So from the first parts of the Bible, the mystery of God's nature is begun.
KingReef says:
But where do we get evidence of these things elsewhere? I will show you.
ehab shehata says:
Proof sufficient for the young and old?
KingReef says:
I don't understand the question.
ehab shehata says:
Go ahead. You allowed me to speak I should give you the same respect.
KingReef says:
Okay, thank you.
KingReef says:
The LORD who revealed Himself as YHVH in the Old Testament is revealed as Yeshua (Jesus) in the New Testament. Jesus shares the same attributes as YHVH and clearly claims to be YHVH. In John 8:56-9, Jesus presents himself as the "I AM."
ehab shehata says:
I want the verses before that and the verses after.
ehab shehata says:
Also the atributes of YHVH and the attributes of Jesus
KingReef says:
When challenged by some Jewish leaders regarding His claim of seeing Abraham (who lived some 2000 years earlier), Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." John 8 is where the text is from. The story is being told by the same source that I gave prior to this.
ehab shehata says:
Verses before... also verses after
KingReef says:
Okay.
KingReef says:
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
KingReef says:
Is that sufficient?
ehab shehata says:
Fine, it still seems evident that the proof i brought was solid
KingReef says:
Which do you call proof? Please remind me.
ehab shehata says:
The details written in the Koran 1400 years ago- Such as that of the details of embyrology, or about the mountains, about the origins of the universe, about the oceans and seas, about the rainwater, about the nature of a storm, about the best number of people in one wants to have a gathering in order to reflect, about the clouds, about the things foretold in the koran, about many challenges made 1400 years ago, yet noone has been able to meet the challenge, even though the people at the time of the Prophet, hate that which he bought, they were not able to say, "the quran this this challenge, well here i met your challenge"
ehab shehata says:
Also, i will give you three example of challenges
KingReef says:
I stated that the fetal development arguement was errant. The mountians I am unimpressed with, and the other things I do not remember you bringing up.
KingReef says:
Please give your examples.
ehab shehata says:
The first: "And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides God if you are truthful.

And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones.  It has been prepared for disbelievers.  And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow....In the begining, Allah challenged the Pagan Arabs to produce a Koran similar to the Koran revealed to Mohammed they were not able, so then he challenged them to produce, 10 chapters like 10 of the Koran
ehab shehata says:
they were not able
ehab shehata says:
Allah finally told them, simply one chapter! note the shortest chapter of the Quraan is 10 or 12 words. Noone has been able in 1400 to do this, even though the arabs at the time of the Prophet were the most eloquent at the language, and specialized in poetry which is the reason they were so shocked at the Koran, it was unlike anything.
ehab shehata says:
Another Challenge
ehab shehata says:
Verily, Allâh is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allâh intend by this parable?"
ehab shehata says:
By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are Al-Fâsiqűn (the rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). The challenge here or the "Parable" is Allah is challenging mankind to create simply a mosquito or even the wing of a mosquito
ehab shehata says:
He is saying "Gather all mankind" and try!
ehab shehata says:
Another challenge, ""Do they not consider the Qur’ân ? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.""

Allah simply says, here OKAY your not able to come up with a chapter, or even create a mosquito... atleast find a mistake in the Koran!

One mistake to proove that your claim has some basis
ehab shehata says:
These challenges cause the mind to reflect, and say, " If this was from other then God the One who Created all that exists, truly i would be able to meet these challenges... easily "

So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allâh (in Islâm), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allâh in Islâm)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message
KingReef says:
Are you finished, or do you want to give me another example?
ehab shehata says:
There are numerous many other examples, what i have bought though is sufficient to remove the doubt from the hearts.
KingReef says:
I do not doubt that you believe those things. Is that close enough?
ehab shehata says:
Where do you believe the Koran came from?
KingReef says:
Know that my answer is what I truly believe, not to cause mischief, okay?
ehab shehata says:
Okay, in front of God on the day of resurrection you have no excuse now.
ehab shehata says:
You cannot say, " O my Lord, But no warner came to me"
KingReef says:
You are RIGHT! But I do have a defense!
ehab shehata says:
Go ahead- But consider it deeply, this religion of Islaam
KingReef says:
I have. And one religion under more bondage to laws and rules I will prove difficult to find!!
KingReef says:
What's your take on Gospel?
ehab shehata says:
A revealed book of God, which was later changed and altered. originally revealed in the Jewish Language [dont recall its name], and than once translated many words were given new meanings, eg when Mohammed is mention as Himday, they translate it into something completely different, or when people are mentioned as 'Children of God' This is a style in the Hebrew denoting righteousness; meaning children by way of doing good deeds, not by way of actual association
KingReef says:
Trust in God, and good deeds will follow. Otherwise called the fruit. The Spirit of God brings good works to us. That's why we say, "All glory goes to God." It's not just a mantra, it's a fact.
ehab shehata says:
Also the Bible was revealed for Bani Israel [The children of Israel] to follow, and at their time this was the revelation given to them to hear and obey.
ehab shehata says:
Reef- I dislike to go into this topic... i rarely do. but you realise that most of the commandments of the bible are ignored?
KingReef says:
I understand the reason why.
ehab shehata says:
People don't believe.
KingReef says:
Well yes, some do not believe, but the Law is impossible for man to keep.
ehab shehata says:
.... The way God is explained it would seem that He is trying to make life extremely impossible or difficult... He reveals to us "The Mystery of God"
ehab shehata says:
gives us rules we cant follow, allows men to alter his book
KingReef says:
He was setting the tone for man to take, ie repentance.
KingReef says:
What's your take on repentance?
ehab shehata says:
Our Prophet told us, " Every son of Adam is a sinner, and the best of the sinners are those whom repent. "
KingReef says:
I agree with that statement. But what does repentance really mean?
ehab shehata says:
I want to know the importance of this topic- repentance. I feel this is a minor detail of religion, the definition though islaamically taken up proofs is, The three conditions for repentance, 1. Regret 2. Asking Forgiveness 3. Leaving off that action Repentance means to leave off a bad deed or sin for the sake of God and seek His Pleasure and Forgiveness
KingReef says:
Okay. I see nothing wrong with that path. But this is how I understand it, it's simple really.
KingReef says:
Repentence in the biblical Greek is neutral to emotion. It's the Latin that emotion is stressed. But in the Greek it simply means ; turning from something, to something else. In Biblical context it means turning from your ways, to God's ways.
ehab shehata says:
mm, I praise God for allowing me to be born into this religion- and am in gratitude to him- I thank him for showing me the falseness of all other paths- Through clear discussions such as this was one- Islaam is truly the Path. I ask God to Guide you... And i truly hope you are ready to enter into the religion, the excuse of mine has brought and the excuse of yours has been bought, the truth has been made manifest
KingReef says:
Is that a goodby?
ehab shehata says:
"Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'ân) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allâh by uttering that Allâh has a wife and a son). "
ehab shehata says:
I'm going to go make the noon prayer, i should be back in maybe 5 or 10 minutes.
The Oneness of God Part 2
( renamed "Proofs for the Authenticity of the Koran" by Ehab )
KingReef says:
I felt that we didn't stay very long on the topic.
ehab shehata says:
Which?
KingReef says:
The Oneness of God.
ehab shehata says:
The topic it seemed of proving the authenticity of the Koran, would do both once a person realizes 'The Koran is word of God', then everything falls into place
KingReef says:
.. . . not everything!
ehab shehata says:
"These are the Verses of the Book (the Qur'ân) Al-Hakîm [showing lawful and unlawful things, explaining Allâh's (Divine) Laws for mankind, leading them to eternal happiness by ordering them to follow the true Islâmic Monotheism, - worshipping none but Allâh Alone - that will guide them to Paradise and save them from Hell]. "

Verily! This (the Qur'ân) is the Word that separates (the truth from falsehood, and commands strict legal laws for mankind to cut the roots of evil).

That is the description God gave of the Koran, am i to give one that is better?
ehab shehata says:
Reef, it is the Truth from the Lord of the Worlds.

(This is) a Book which We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad SAW) in order that you might lead mankind out of darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into light (of belief in the Oneness of Allâh and Islâmic Monotheism) by their Lord's Leave to the Path of the All-Mighty, the Owner of all Praise.

"And they say: "O you (Muhammad SAW ) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'ân) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man."

And (remember) the Day when We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst themselves. And We shall bring you (O Muhammad SAW) as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims).

Say: ' I witness there is no deity worthy of worship, except Allah, and I witness that Mohammed is his Messenger" That is all a person must say to enter into islaam
KingReef says:
I understand that you believe that. But where does Jesus come into your belief system?
ehab shehata says:
The story of Jesus is related in the chapter of Mary, i could quote from there or go from my head
KingReef says:
k
KingReef says:
'k' means 'okay.'
ehab shehata says:
k these are the verses...

"And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad SAW , the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east." She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh." (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"

He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh).' "

So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem).
KingReef says:
It sounds like you believe that god has a Son?
ehab shehata says:
the story continues, i dont see anywhere cliaming that god has a son
KingReef says:
Who put him there?
ehab shehata says:
Let's continue the verses...

" And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!"

"Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrael (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; "

""And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you."

"So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'"

Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing).

"O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârűn (Aaron) [not the brother of Műsa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman."

Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

"He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.
KingReef says:
So; Mary the Prophet?
ehab shehata says:
The scholars differed
ehab shehata says:
some said she was a Prophet some said she righteous
KingReef says:
Why when it is so clear?
ehab shehata says:
She's not stated to be a Prophet, and also
KingReef says:
.. . . . because she is a woman?
ehab shehata says:
That too, but also because she wasnt mentioned as calling the people to worship allah
ehab shehata says:
nor did she come with a scripture
ehab shehata says:
and we do not know of any woman prophets
ehab shehata says:
But we believe her to be from the most righteous woman, our Prophet told us, "Four woman have the highest status in paradise, they are Khadijah (his first wife) Asiya (the wife of Pharoah) Fatima (His daughter, and Mary (The mother of Jesus peace be upon him )

That is the Islaamic belief about the story of Jesus that he was simpy the word of Allah, "Be" and he was. Allah says "Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. "
KingReef says:
Who put Jesus in Mary's womb?!
ehab shehata says:
Allah created EVERYTHING. hence Allah created Jesus, "Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. "
KingReef says:
Oh, so you could say that Allah has a Son?
ehab shehata says:
No let me relate to you a small chapter.

Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allâh, (the) One. "Allâh-us-Samad(The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).  "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

Begets not, nor was begotten, the verse is clear God did not beget a son, nor was he begotten
KingReef says:
But he put Jesus in Mary's womb.
ehab shehata says:
What is a baby? simply begins as the most insignificant thing. Cannot God create that most insignificant thing? Is Adam the son of God? Adam has more right to be the son of God then Jesus
KingReef says:
Sure, like creating an offspring in a virgin.
ehab shehata says:
He has no mother or father
KingReef says:
Who?  Jesus?
ehab shehata says:
Adam
ehab shehata says:
He has more right to be the son of God then Jesus, neither father nor mother
KingReef says:
I was asking about Jesus, now you are on Adam. When did that happen?
KingReef says:
Who was Jesus’ mother?
ehab shehata says:
Mary
KingReef says:
Who helped that happen?
ehab shehata says:
God, He craeted Jesus in her womb
KingReef says:
So he has a Son!
ehab shehata says:
The same way He created the heavens and the earth
ehab shehata says:
Reef, God created everything, does that mean that everything is his child?
KingReef says:
So he created a Son?
ehab shehata says:
He created Jesus
ehab shehata says:
where the concept of son came in is past me.
KingReef says:
Right, a male offspring.
KingReef says:
That would be called a son by most peoples reckoning.
ehab shehata says:
It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.
KingReef says:
I know what the Koran says about it, but what is a male offspring other than a son?
ehab shehata says:
A son of Mary
KingReef says:
Who was the father?
ehab shehata says:
WAIT a moment.
ehab shehata says:
If i am to understand the christian doctrine you are saying God, fornicated with Mary? or ejaculated into her womb?
KingReef says:
No. That would make Mary 'not a virgin.'
ehab shehata says:
So than Jesus does not have the status of Son of God
KingReef says:
Why not?
ehab shehata says:
To attain this status he would need to have slept with her which no sane person will bring. He simply created Jesus
KingReef says:
No, you said that he created Jesus in Mary’s womb.
KingReef says:
I would agree.
ehab shehata says:
He created me in my mothers womb
ehab shehata says:
im not a son of God
KingReef says:
Have it your way. But still, he created Jesus in Mary's womb.
ehab shehata says:
He created Prophet John in the womb of his mother, although his father was past the age to have sex
KingReef says:
I'm not so sure about that!
KingReef says:
I iknow that they didn't have viagra back then. But the urge is quite real in men. It's the woman that dries up.
ehab shehata says:
Heh, has not the time come for you to accept the Koran as the word God, you no proof to deny it
ehab shehata says:
only conjecture and stubborness
KingReef says:
You've given me no good logical reason to accept the Koran. Please, do not try to convert me, I am quite set in the Word. I trust Him, and He sets my path straight.
ehab shehata says:
The many examples i bought forth are a proof, that God wants mankind to follow His Command, The Koran, The numerous numerous proofs are evident and a guide for the one who takes heed
ehab shehata says:
The facts about the embyro- You deny this?
ehab shehata says:
The facts about the origin of the universe?
ehab shehata says:
The facts about the mountains?
KingReef says:
All I have are some obvious things, like mountain go deeper than we see them, and a quite incorrect appraisal of fetal development.
ehab shehata says:
The facts which say everything was created from water?
KingReef says:
You said that Adam was created from dust. So everything was not created from water.
ehab shehata says:
I want to find the verse, give me a moment.
ehab shehata says:

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?"

Ironically, this very information is exactly what they awarded the 1973 Noble Prize for - to a couple of unbelievers.
KingReef says:
That's the kind of thing that is found as a contradiction in the Koran. Adam was created from dust, then they say everything was created from water. It doesn't make any sense.
ehab shehata says:
Read what the scienticists say.

Als The Qur’ân reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece - and mankind continues to verify this revelation, even up to now. Additionally, the fact that all life originated from water would not have been an easy thing to convince people of fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, if 1400 years ago you had stood in the desert and told someone, "All of this, you see (pointing to yourself) , is made up of mostly water," no one would have believed you. Proof of that was not available until the invention of the microscope. They had to wait to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made-up of80 % water. Nonetheless, the evidence did come, and once again the Qur’ân stood the test of time.
KingReef says:
Everything?
ehab shehata says:
The utmost and highest scientcists verify these facts
KingReef says:
So the Planet Mercury is made mostly of water?
ehab shehata says:
Ask a scientist also says "Every Living thing" in the verse and we know every living thing is made from cytoplasm, cytoplasm is 80% water, hence all living things are made from water.
KingReef says:
Why not look at the Koran. If what you say is true, the Koran says that EVERYTHING is made mostly of water!
ehab shehata says:
"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?"
ehab shehata says:
" And Made from water every living thing"
KingReef says:
So now you are saying that every living thing is made mostly of water?
ehab shehata says:
I bear witness, that there is no deity worthy of worship, except Allah, and bear witness that Mohammed is his Slave and his Messenger, I bear witness and testify that the call of all the Prophets was simply to the message of There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we ha and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
KingReef says:
So then the mix is incomplete. God not only used the dust of the earth, but he also used water.
ehab shehata says:
Reef, your not a scientist stop attempting to make it so
KingReef says:
No, but I do have some training in certain things.
KingReef says:
One of those things is horticulture, and another is to use books to find things out.
ehab shehata says:
When i see the world expert on embryology and various world renowned experts adhering and professing the truth of these verses, then there can be no doubt.
ehab shehata says:
Will you read?
KingReef says:
So fetuses turn into bones before they coat it with skin?
ehab shehata says:
http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=47&chapter=1 and www.Islam-Guide.com the verses are clear.
The Oneness of God Part 3
( renamed "Proofs for the Authenticity of the Koran" by Ehab )
ehab shehata:
About what you told me about the mistranslation of the embryonic verses
ehab shehata:
i was thinking about it
KingReef:
k
ehab shehata:
and realized the simplicity of why it couldnt of been misinterpretted in the english language.
ehab shehata: These verses were translated in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, they didn't know their meaning, they simply said God says this... lets find out if modern science confirms it, so they called in a scientist to research and look deeper into these verses.
KingReef:
Do you mean 'why it could be misinterpreted'?
ehab shehata: They could not of lied about the meaning of the verses, simply due to one thing, they didn't know their meanings.
KingReef:
Go ahead, I'll add what you say as an amended conversation, okay?
ehab shehata: okay
KingReef:
Very good then, do you have anything else to add?
ehab shehata:
I begin with name of Allah[God] the Most High, and praise Him. I ask him to enter a light into my words and allow the truth to be utmost, Amin.
ehab shehata: First the Koranic verses speaking about the human embyro development, are miraculous
ehab shehata:
as we have both concluded
ehab shehata:
yes?
KingReef:
I don't remember concluding that, but go ahead.
ehab shehata:
To continue, the verses are either held to be a) Miraculous or b) misinterpretted... by the Will of God i wish to show that these verses are truly miraculous using a number of clear examples
ehab shehata:
Firstly, as i mentioned when the Saudi Arabian Kingdom had these verses [in the arabic language], they concluded hey this is a scientific theory God says 'this is how we're created in the womb', We don't have the technology nor science to figure that out in our Kingdom, so we're going to follow the command of God, God says in the Koran, "And ask the people of knowledge, if you are in doubt"
ehab shehata:
Hence they invited Dr.Keith Moore world renowned embyrologist, he was as it should be noted: neither muslim nor in truth religiously oriented, he was simply a scientist who went to do his job. So firstly, the Saudi Arabians held that these verses spoke truth, but they simply didnt understand them ehab shehata: After calling in Keith Moore, they required to translate them into the english language
KingReef:
Do you know what year this took place?
ehab shehata:
allow me to check
ehab shehata:
Keith Moores statement, "In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later...
ehab shehata:
It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that". Muhammad must have been a messenger of God. If u want to watch the video of this statement: http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm near the bottom reference 9
In another place he states, "During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of)."
"The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D."

"Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. "

"For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.” Same page reference number 11
KingReef:
Thank you. I have another question, can you tell me where in the Koran the verse about the fetal development is. You may have already said so, but just for the record, if you will.
ehab shehata:
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 23: 12-14 To read more go to: http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm
KingReef:
Thank you.
KingReef:
Was there anything else?
ehab shehata:
The scientist as it becomes apparent 1) was not given a misinterpretation of the Koran, due to the Saudi Arabian Kingdom not knowing the scientific implication of the verses, but simply translating them. This proves the improbablity of a misinterpretation.

IP IP Logged
DavidC
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2211
Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2007 at 3:30pm
All I asked for was a cool sip of water...no need to turn the fire hose on me...
David C.
IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2007 at 3:33pm

Originally posted by DavidC

All I asked for was a cool sip of water...no need to turn the fire hose on me...

IP IP Logged
Reepicheep
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 06 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 321
Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2007 at 3:35pm

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." 

W.C. Fields

IP IP Logged
Patty
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2382
Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2007 at 7:28pm
All I remember was reading a loooooong post and then waking up on my keyboard zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 5:41am
Was that an actually conversation?? or did someone made it up?
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com