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Saladin
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:15am
Minuteman and H3OO,
 
You both claim that, just because the interpretation for "tawaffa" is 'taking the soul in death' in atleast 20 verses, you conclude that they can be interpreted (as you wish) as death, when "night or sleep" is not mentioned.
 
The interpretation for "tawaffa" has been given in the Quran by Allah very clearly in
039.042 : It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect. 
 
Ergo, to interpret "tawaffa" in a verse, the occasion or the following action should be considered. Below are the verses in which "tawaffa" has been interpreted as 'taking the soul in death'. From the ocassion and the actions in these verses, the interpretation was obvious.
 
3/193
...AAannasayyi-atina watawaffana maAAa al-abrari

.... Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous.
 
Its obvious. In sleep, souls are not taken in the company of the righteous alone. Plus, this is an invocation for mercy, making it even clear. Tawaffa here can only be interpreted as death.
 
4/15

...albuyooti hattayatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunnasabeelan
...confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way
 
The first injuction regarding zina, which was amended later. Very obvious; cant be interpreted as "until sleep".

4/97
Inna allatheena tawaffahumualmala-ikatu thalimee....
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, ....

The complete verse makes it very clear that 'tawaffa' can only be interpreted as death. The angels of death taking the soul

2/234
Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasnabi-anfusihinna...
And [as for] those of u who die and leave wives behind, these shall wait.....
Wives have to wait the Iddat period if husband dies. 

 2/240
Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatanli-azwajihim ...
and those of u who die and leave wives behind shall bequeath to their wives.....
Very obvious here too.

6/61
...almawtu tawaffat-hurusuluna wahum la yufarritoona
...At length, when death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul,
 and they never fail in their duty.
 
"al mawtu". Death mentioned.

7/37
...alkitabi hatta itha jaat-humrusuluna yatawaffawnahum qaloo...
...until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, ...
 
Reading the whole verse, tawaffa here cannot be interpreted as sleep.

7/126
...AAalaynasabran watawaffana muslimeena.
...pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims
 
The wizards of Firaun made this invocation.Take our souls as Muslims. Obviously in death.

8/50
Walaw tara ith yatawaffaallatheena kafaroo ...
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death)
 
Read the whole verse....blazing fire. Very obvious.

10/46
...naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilaynamarjiAAuhum thumma Allahu shaheedun AAala mayafAAaloona.
some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (Before that),- in any case,
to Us is their return: ultimately Allah is witness, to all that they do
 
....Unto us is their return. Death.

10/104
...Allahaallathee yatawaffakum waomirtu an akoona minaalmu/mineena
But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers.
 
Read whole verse. Obvious.

12/101
...alddunyawaal-akhirati tawaffanee musliman waalhiqneebialssaliheena
...Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."
Obviously death.

13/40
Wa-in ma nuriyannaka baAAdaallathee naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-innamaAAalayka albalaghu waAAalayna alhisabu
    Whether We shall show thee (within thy life-time) part of what we promised them or take to ourselves thy soul (before it is all
accomplished),- thy duty is to make (the Message) reach them: it is our part to call them to account.
 
Obvious.

16/28
Allatheena tatawaffahumu almala-ikatuthalimee anfusihim...
"(Namely) those whose lives the angels take in a state of wrong-doing to their own souls." Then would
they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no
evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily Allah knoweth all that ye did;
 
Obvious.

 16/70
WaAllahu khalaqakum thummayatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila...
It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death;...
 
Obvious.

 22/5
...man yutawaffawaminkum man yuraddu ila arthali ...
...that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die...
 
Obvious.

32/11
Qul yatawaffakum malaku almawti allatheewukkila bikum thumma ila rabbikum turjaAAoona.
Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."
 
Malak al mawt takes soul in death.

40/67
...o shuyookhan waminkum man yutawaffa min qabluwalitablughoo...
...reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before...
 
Obvious.

 40/77
...aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilayna yurjaAAoona
...We show thee (in this life) some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy)
 (before that),-(in any case) it is to Us that they shall (all) return.
 
Obvious.

 47/27
Fakayfa itha tawaffat-humu almala-ikatuyadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum
But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
 
Obvious.
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:00am
 
  Saladin, your point is not understood. I believe that The soul is taken away at two times:
 
1.  When a person sleeps (that is a temporary taking away).
2. When a person dies (That is permanent taking away).
 
 In both cases only the soul is taken away and the body is left where ever it is.
 
 You have presented maximum verses with your good remarks. Will you kindly explain your idea of the word Tawaffa as used in the Quran. Please.


Edited by minuteman - 06 October 2008 at 4:21am
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:39am
Maybe 'break the cross' means breaking the 'power of death' ?
 
Why would Jesus break the cross, the beliefs of Christians - when those beliefs are to follow Christ - to take up the cross and follow Jesus.
 
To follow Jesus to and through the cross is to submit utterly to the will of God, even to 'death on a cross' - 'death to self' that the will of God be fulfilled in life, done on earth as it is in Heaven - and the Kingdom of God  truly begin to reign in this world.  
 
I don't understand why Isa/Jesus would destroy what it means, should mean, to be a 'true Muslim' ?
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 5:31am
as to ur saying that the pronoun His is masculine in my interpretation.

Quran says:
And whoso does evil or wrongs his soul....4/110

and whoso commits a sin, commits it only against his won soul...4/111

....He shall find for himself no friend or helper besides Allah4/123

And whoso opposes the Massenger after guidance has become manifest to him...4/115

If u see, Allah used pronouns his/him and also noun He in above verses but does that means that it only applies to men and not women? Plz answer this saladin. ofcourse not and in most places in Quran,  Allah has addressed us, whether male or female,  by using pronoun  his/him or using Noun He and it means both male and female though the pronoun or noun is saying only male.



I hope this will clarify the problem and plz now again read my interpretation of verse 159 on page  8 and im sure it will  sound more realistic now after this clarification and over there i have clearly stated as to how ur translation dont makes much sense.

and also their is no where mentioned in holy quran that Jesus will physically come down to earth from the heavens. descend is used in hadith and im sure its meaning has been cleared in my previous post. and relating to tawaffa, its clear where soul is taken during sleep or night,
these words are clearly mentioned and where as in other cases, death is taken as meaning and so its not about being obvious or not obvious.

but even if there are still problems relating to this word, then there are many other things that i have proved that goes in favour of jesus not be physically raised. and again remember God will never break his law of nature, go against our logic, his rules to save any one and that is why he saved prophet[sa] from within the rules of this word.

Edited by H3OO - 06 October 2008 at 10:44am
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 8:38am

My dear members, i don't know, why you are discussing with this person, who once while discussing the sunnah of beard said "he shall grow a beard only when his wife says"

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Saladin
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:22am
My last reply Seeks.
 
Saladin, your point is not understood. I believe that The soul is taken away at two times:
 
1.  When a person sleeps (that is a temporary taking away).
2. When a person dies (That is permanent taking away).
 
 In both cases only the soul is taken away and the body is left where ever it is.
 
 You have presented maximum verses with your good remarks. Will you kindly explain your idea of the word Tawaffa as used in the Quran. Please.
 
Like I've always maintained in my posts, the interpretation of tawaffa is given by Allah in 39:42. The verses where 'tawaffa' have no given interpretation, the verse in the whole along with the actions and occasions described should be considered to make the interpretation. Like I pointed out in my previous post all the verses where tawaffa had been interpretated as 'taking the soul in death', one way or another indicated 'death', whereas in 3:55 and 5:117 there's no indication of death. With hadith also supporting the fact that Isa (a.s) did not die, the Quranic scholars interpretated 'tawaffa' in 3:55 and 5:117 as 'taking the soul'- in sleep not death.
 
My previous post was in response to your claim; that since tawaffa is interpretated as 'death' in not less than 23 verses and only twice as 'sleep';  'tawaffa' in 3:55 and 5:117 should be considered as death, which is wrong.
 
3:55  Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself.....
 
Allah took the soul of Isa (a.s) in sleep and raised his body to Himself.
 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:24am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 The translation of the verse 4:159 has made me think on another line. Please see:
 
 "And there is none among the people of the Book but will  believe in it (it; refers to being crucified) before his (it may be people of book and not jesus) death  and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them." (4:159)
 It means every one of the Jews and the christians will keep on believing that Jesus was killed or died on the cross (and this is true) till the end of their life (till their death). It also proves that Jesus himself will never come back again in this world.
 
 The verse is telling that he will be a witness against them on the day of judgement. That means he will not come back. If he was coming back then he could be a witness against the false belief of the Jews and the christians here in this world. The verse is telling tht he will only be a witness on the day of judgement...
 


 (4:159) There are none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, *196 and he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection. *197

 Commentary By Maulana Maududi

 
*196. The death mentioned here could refer either to the death of Jesus or to the death of each and every person among 'the People of the Book'. The text lends itself to both meanings. We have adopted the first in our translation. If we accept the alternative meaning, the verse would mean: "There is no one among the People of the Book who, before his death, will not believe in Jesus.' The expression, 'People of the Book' here refers to the Jews and possibly even to the Christians. In the light of this latter meaning, the purpose of the verse would be to affirm that at the time when the physical death of Jesus takes place, all the living 'People of the Book' would have come to believe in him (i.e. in his prophethood). Alternatively, the verse would mean that the prophethood of Jesus will become manifest to every person among the People of the Book just before he dies so that they will believe in him, but at a time when believing would be of no avail. Both these views have been supported by several Companions, Successors and outstanding scholars of Qur'anic exegesis. The truth of the matter is best known to God alone.

*197. This means that on the Day of Judgement Jesus will stand in the court of the Almighty and testify to the treatment meted out to him and to the message he brought. (For the nature of this testimony see Surah al-Ma'idah 5: 109 ff. below.)
(Source)
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:33pm
 
  Thanks Saladin. You say that Jesus was taken up when sleeping and that his soul was not captured due to death. I hope that is what you mean. According to you, Tawaffa for Jesus means sleep and not death. i.e. in verse 3:55 and 5:117.
 
 I hope I am right in understanding you. If I am wrong then please tell me. And thank you for explaining.
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