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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Topic: Question about rape
    Posted: 06 May 2005 at 1:42am

Am just watching a news report about the state of women in various Asian countries...including a poor girl from Bangladesh (?) who was kidnapped and gang raped for 37 days, then was raped again by the police when she was "rescued".

My question is: how does a woman who is raped, for example, go to authorities to report the crime if she doesn't have (or can't get) 4 witnesses to confirm the crime? Apparently, women who manage to be strong enough to try to report rapes often get thrown in jail for adultery because she can't produce 4 witnesses to confirm her story.

Kim...

 

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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:51pm

No answers yet? I must say I'm a little surprised. Surely _someone_ must know...? Or care.

Kim...

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semar
 
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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2005 at 1:07pm

Dear Kim,

I think the forum members a little bit uncomfortable to talk about shariah (islamic law), people/other member may said that "John Doe doesn't have enough knowledge about QURAN AND HADITH (prophet's tradition) but challenging the shariah".

Just my humble opinion (note: I am not good in quran & hadith too), because adultery is very serious 'crime' in islam, so it requires very strong evidence to judge it. 4 witnesses and conviction were the only acceptable evidences on that time.

Rape it is very difficult case to proof it, even in 'modern' law. However in the quran there is an 'example' regarding rape. In surah yusuf/Joseph (chapter 12):

===
12:22 When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right.

12:23 But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"

12:24 And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified.

12:25 So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?"

12:26 He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!

12:27 "But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"

12:28 So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare!

12:29 "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"
===

So in this modern day I think 4 witnesses is not the only tool that can be used to proof adultery, dna test and any other modern technology also can be used.

However, again rape is the most difficult case, because there is no scientific tools (at least that I know of) to differentiate between 'making love' by force or not. You can see Tyson's case, Cobe Bryan's case, etc took forever to finalize it.

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 4:14pm

DNA test? All that proves is who did it - it does NOT prove she was forced.

And I'm sorry if you meant well, but your story just says that women are guilty and that men are their poor, defenceless little victims.

I ask again - HOW can a woman be treated properly by the law/men/society if she does NOT have 4 witnessess who will testify that she was raped?

Perhaps this is why hell is full of women - because a LOT of them sure as hell have no reason to speak well of their society, their men and of life in this world.

Kim...



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MOCKBA
 
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 5:01pm

Kim,

I am not a qualified to provide you with scholastic answer to your question, but in my opnion i would try not to confuse rape and adultery. The latter can take place without force and on mutual agreement, whereas rape is not without force and therefore, more often, should present itself with some evidence. Brother Semar has given some indications from the example of Yusuf (May Allaah be pleased with him).

Hence, in case of rape, the ruling might vary from adultery, as to necessity of sourcing out 4 witnesses. It could be classified as offense equal to torture, humiliation, violation of one's dignity, severe physical abuse or even, and most likely, murder.

From the example that you have pointed it should be clear that it is not Shariah that is at fault or flaw it is people and their ignorance in following it rightly... It is convenience, liberalism and distorted meaning of 'progress' that they try to implement.

What happens in  countries that are known as Muslim is not always reflection of Islaamic teachings. There is no ground whatsoever for the King of Saudi Arabia to remain in his position as the leader of the country if we were to look at Shariah. The leader who can barely take care of himself, and help himslef in his personal daily needs without assistance can't be the ruler, can he.

If Shariah is not practiced at a fundumental level in the country that is known to be 'hardcore' Islamic country how can you expect it to be implemented properly in countries with strong cultural and at times un-Islaamic influences.

It is not the Shariah that should be questioned but whether it is implemented without being intentionally concealed or twisted.

MOCKBA
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 5:57pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Hello Kim,

Are u presuming that the state of a woman who is raped does not speak of the crime commited on her? How could it be that there are no signs of force on her poor physical self if she has been abused. If she takes her complains to the authorities, she should first be given a medical exam. her relationship with the offender needs to be established, and the signs of abuse shld be ruled out is a case of adultry is to be proven on her .... it can happen, am not denying the posibility. Authorities are fake, and their methods are also fake in several cases, but that does not point a finger at the islamic sharia.

There need to be four witnesses to present a case of adultry, but I don't think the same rule is applicabe in case of a crime like rape.

There is wisdome in having four witnesses, so that people are not  able acuse and have anyone punished on baseless charges. The people who are witnesses, their integrity is also to be taken into consideration for their testimony to apply ... not just anybody can be a witness. If this accusation is between spouses, no four witnesses are required, but they need to swear an oath of being truthful, and swear to have allah's wrath upon them if they are lying ... it is not a light matter, as you may have conceived.

Your mention of the hadith about women in hell at this juncture is not a very intelligent argument, please do not mind. You are interpreting a hadith thru your own conjuncture, and this is not the method of understanding prophetic traditions in islam.

Peace,

Nausheen

 



Edited by Nausheen
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 6:05pm

Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it.

This happens!

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;cat=Asia

And I am not confusing rape and adultery - but apparently many people do! 

Kim...

 

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MOCKBA
 
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by kim!

Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it.

This happens!

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;am p;cat=Asia

And I am not confusing rape and adultery - but apparently many people do! 

Kim...

then we are shifting from the 'rape' subject to responsibilities and moral upbringing of the police...

MOCKBA
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