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Interfaith Dialogue
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Mauri
 
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Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2007 at 7:52pm

Maryah: I do not know of what faith you are, but many Christians are in actuality practicing multitheism by Islamic standards.

Christians say the same thing about Muslims, and for the very same reasons. The Quran and the Bible both say that there is only one God, the Creator.  Christians and Muslims both teach and preach that.  Muslims say Christians deify Jesus; Christians say that Muslims deify Muhammed.   Each side points to the bloody history of the other side to prove themselves righteous and the others infidels.

Both sides teach and preach that there is only one God, the Creator.  Each side goes to its own holy book; they both come back with the same message and condemn the other side with it.  

It’s like a European using the metric system to follow a cake recipe that uses English measurements.  It’s not going to come out right. 

The Quran confirms that God does not have sons the way Muslims think of sons. But, it then confirms that Jesus is the son of God as the Bible teaches it.  (Sort of like converting the recipe from English to metric, so it can be used…[understood]).

The Barnabas website was started by Islamic scholars and is a work in progress, however, the views and theories presented have not to date been disproved.

I doubt it will ever be fully addressed, much less disproven.  I made no attempt to disprove it to you; I simply offered what I thought was sufficient to warrant further investigation.  Nevertheless, if I had known it was by Islamic scholars, out of respect, I would not have made the comment about finding websites with stronger arguments.  I apologize for any offense that might have caused.

I invite you to explore it.

If you had read my post all the way through, you would know that I had visited the site because at the end, I quoted  from the site something which you had not pasted on the board.



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Mauri
 
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Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2007 at 8:01pm
Patty:  Since you mentioned the "Jesus Only" believers above, may I safely assume you are a member of the Apostolic Church, aka "Oneness"?  Long ago I was engaged to an Apostolic....I will never forget the beliefs they follow.  But they are good, kind people.

No.  I called them "Jesus Only" because I couldn't remember what they were officially called.  I am only vaguely familiar with some of their beliefs.
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2007 at 4:58am

Guys, there are two open threads with much in them already

Since this is an on-going topic, I see many same things mentioned

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4365& ;KW=trinity

 

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=238& KW=trinity&PN=0&TPN=1

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2007 at 7:46pm

I just posted this for the info and an invitation to open thought.

Thank you Mauri for the input and the links.

Apostolics are interesting people, very educated and well versed. Lets steer this thread back to the other open threads!

Subject closed

 

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2007 at 10:00pm

Angel,

Don't make me read 16+11 pages!!

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2007 at 6:01am

An Explanatory Guide to worship Verses: Worshipped him in the following verses means "begged him".

"According to Aristides, one of the earliest
apologists, the worship of the early Christians was more purely monotheistic even than of the Jews."

"When people fell down and worshipped him, Jesus never stopped them."

BMZ: Let us see what really happened! 

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

There is not much relevance in this verse. The Infancy Bible of Jesus has been declared an apocrypha, as such I do not see any justification of above by Matthew. Were the Magiis Jews? If they were Jews, they would not have bowed down and worshipped the child. In above verse, "and worshipped him" should have been "and worshipped Him (God)" and presented gifts to him (the child).


Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Note that the leper has not been cured or cleaned up by Jesus yet. If he had worshipped Jesus, he would have worshipped him after he was cured up. The act has not been done, hence the question of worship does not arise. The act of worshipping in above is not that of worshipping God.

Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Again note that she has not been resurrected yet. The ruler approaches Jesus and begs him to revive his daughter. Again no real worship.

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Note "and worshipped him saying" which really means praising him for his efforts. They did not fall down in prostration.

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Again, note that he has not yet helped her or done anything yet. Any act of worship, if there had to be one, should have come later.

Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Verse has been quoted out of context. The servant fell down begging in the parable.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Jesus did not say "All hail" to me.. He just said,"Greetings". The Matthew that I have says only "Greetings". They just clung to him. It was just an act of joy to see their teacher again.

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

If that had happened, he would have told the doubters to worship him like others did. He did not say anything.

Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

He did not worship Jesus, he fell down on his knees because his hands and legs were chained and he shouted at the top of his voice. That is no way to worship.

Mar 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing [their] knees worshipped him.

This is really crazy. Were the soldiers really worshipping him? They were mocking him.

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

After "worshipping" him, they stayed continually at the temple, praising God. Mark's disciples did not know about this.



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Mauri
 
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Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2007 at 2:56pm

Bmzsp:  An Explanatory Guide to worship Verses: Worshipped him in the following verses means "begged him".

Me: The definition and origin of the word “worship” can be found at http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mat& ; ;chapter=2&verse=11&strongs=4352&page =

Worship precedes begging.  Worship does not necessarily precede asking.  Let me explain.  To beg, one must first esteem the other more highly than himself.  The “have nots” beg from those they perceive to be the “haves”. 

If you esteem someone to have less than you, why would you ask him for anything?  To humiliate him by exposing how poor he is? 

When men wanted to worship Paul and Barabas, they stopped them.  Why?  Because it not the power of Paul’s faith that healed the man, but the power of the man’s faith.  Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,   10.  Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Compare that with:  Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].  6. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Some might be able to see how the above relates to Moses being told to strike the rock first and then to speak to the rock.

Bmzsp:  "According to Aristides, one of the earliest
apologists, the worship of the early Christians was more purely monotheistic even than of the Jews."

Me: According to science, the early you was once more purely monoparentheistic even than of twins.

 

"When people fell down and worshipped him, Jesus never stopped them."

Me: Jesus didn’t stop them because their esteem was warranted.  John 4:32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.


BMZ: Let us see what really happened! 

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

There is not much relevance in this verse. The Infancy Bible of Jesus has been declared an apocrypha, as such I do not see any justification of above by Matthew. Were the Magiis Jews? If they were Jews, they would not have bowed down and worshipped the child. In above verse, "and worshipped him" should have been "and worshipped Him (God)" and presented gifts to him (the child).

The relevance is there.  Focusing on what is not there (the apocrypha) can blind you to what is there (the relevance).  Until you see the relevance, you cannot expect to see the justification.     

Imagine that English linguists formed a Council and ruled that the letter “a” was apocryphal.  Would the missing “a’s” be such a stumbling stone that you could see no relevance to what remained?   See if you can read this:  Femle mice exposed to  common chemicl found in plstics while in the womb develop bnorml eggs, ccording to  new study. Bsed on this finding, reserchers speculte tht the chemicl, bisphenol , might increse the risk of spontneous bortion nd genetic disorders in humns, such s Down's syndrome.

 


Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Note that the leper has not been cured or cleaned up by Jesus yet. If he had worshipped Jesus, he would have worshipped him after he was cured up. The act has not been done, hence the question of worship does not arise. The act of worshipping in above is not that of worshipping God.

Me: That would be false worship.  That’s like a spoiled child who “likes someone” because they give him candy.  He doesn’t like that someone at all—he likes himself and pretends to like that someone in order to manipulate that someone so he can get more candy.  

Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Again note that she has not been resurrected yet. The ruler approaches Jesus and begs him to revive his daughter. Again no real worship.

Me: Read farther and see what happens when Jesus arrives at the ruler’s house. The people there did not worship (esteem) him,  Rather, they esteemed themselves so highly that they were amused at his foolishness.  Matt. 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,  24: He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

The result was that they were put out (see Mark 6:5 above for the reason) and did not see the work.  

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Note "and worshipped him saying" which really means praising him for his efforts. They did not fall down in prostration.

Me: Read the preceding verses.  They were in a ship in the middle of a storm.  When Jesus entered the ship, the storm ceased.  They were free to stand up without fear of falling into the sea.  To remain crouched in fear would be a non-verbal expression of distrust (disbelief)—lack of worship (esteem). 

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Again, note that he has not yet helped her or done anything yet. Any act of worship, if there had to be one, should have come later.

Me: She esteemed him capable of helping her, so she asked him to help her. 

Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Verse has been quoted out of context. The servant fell down begging in the parable.

Me: On the contrary, it has a great deal to do with Jesus.  Verse 22 says that it is Jesus speaking.  Verse 23 says that Jesus is comparing the kingdom of heaven to a king.  He tells the parable to illustrate how the kingdom of heaven “works” (remember, he came to show the way). for those who could see the evidence but didn’t know how they worked together (related to each other).   Jesus explains that here: Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:  12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Now, back to the parable….the servant esteemed the king greater than himself.  He esteemed the king above himself and expressed it through bodily position--he fell down (humbled himself, bowed himself before the greater authority…submitted.)  Then, he made his petition.  He was not like the men who wanted to worship Paul and Barnabas, believing that he was totally worthless.  He hath faith that, given time, he could bring forth good treasure from his own heart. 

The king had decided to sell the man and all his household—bind him to the slavery of others.  The reward of his labor would be consumed by others; he would never break even, much less proper.  He would be cast off like dung.

This parable goes along with the one about the master who wanted to cut down a tree because it had been unfruitful.  The Gardener interceded for the tree, asking for time to work with it.  The master granted it.  The Gardener gathered dung and fertilized the tree with the irrelevant things that man had not been able to digest, so had cast off as waste.  With the retrieved matter, the tree brought forth fruit and was spared.

But, whereas the tree absorbed value from the waste (what man had discarded), the forgiven servant made no effort to work with what he had to produce anything of substance.  Rather, he went to someone whom he esteemed less than himself—someone indebted to him, yet, having caused him much less offense than he had caused the king who had just forgiven him. 

He demanded that the man fill in the gap of difference between them.  The gap existed because the servant esteemed the man less than he did and could not relate (connect) to him.  The servant demanded that the man fill in his gap of understanding for him.  He was demanding the impossible—no one can give understanding to another.  One can only offer what he has.  If it is rejected, the offering does not prosper under that authority.  The disconnection, the gap, the sin of unforgiveness remains. 

The servant took the gift of grace he had received from the king and used it as an opportunity to further abuse a fellow servant of their king whom he had, personally,  already relegated to a lower position, devaluing his service (belief, worship) to the same king.

One must see possibility of good before one can see good and then profit from that good.  The dung, itself, could not benefit the tree.  The tree had to absorb (take into consideration) it. 

Things that men before us have rejected are all around us.  Our faith in man’s understanding hinders our faith in God.  We follow the ordinances of men who say, “touch not, taste not”, rather than God, who declared all things good and who is working all things together, whether we can see the connection or not.  Ironically, the way to destroy “untouchable” things is to touch them! (Col. 2: 20-22) 

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Jesus did not say "All hail" to me.. He just said,"Greetings". The Matthew that I have says only "Greetings". They just clung to him. It was just an act of joy to see their teacher again.

Me:  I don’t know what version you are using, but all of the following versions include them touching his feet: NASB:   GWT:  KJV:  ASV:  BBE:  DBY:  WEY:  WBS:  WEB:  YLT:

But, if you mean that your version just has him saying “Greetings” instead of “All hail,” and find that erroneous, I think you fail to grasp the purpose of translations—to get the meaning across to the masses.  Since, it would be the rare individual who could understand what he said, if the original “chairo,” had not been translated to “all hail” or “greetings,” wouldn’t even “hi” serve the purpose better than “chairo”?      

Yes.  If you read the verses prior to that, you will see that they had mixed feelings of fear and joy.  The angel had told them that he had risen.  Sort of an “I believe, help my unbelief” situation. 

 

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

If that had happened, he would have told the doubters to worship him like others did. He did not say anything.

Me:  I totally disagree.  Rather, he would have offered to let them examine the evidence so that all doubt would be removed—that’s what he did with Thomas—and, then they could honestly worship him.  Sincere worship rises from within; it is not commanded from without.  Or, as Muhammed put it, “when your soul rises to your mouth”. 

Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

He did not worship Jesus, he fell down on his knees because his hands and legs were chained and he shouted at the top of his voice. That is no way to worship.

Me:  His hands and legs were chained—his voice was all that he had free to use, and he made the most of it.  Similarly, Jesus, whose hands and feet were bound to the cross by nails, cried out in a loud voice before he was set free by the rending of the veil. (see Mark 15: 34-37)

 (Also, similarly, blind people have a more acute (intense, louder) sense of hearing.) What more would you have required of him?  Giving 100% of $10.00 is a more generous gift than 40% of a million dollars. Granted, the latter appears larger to the one whose focus is on acquiring for self while the sacrifice of the giver remains unseen.

Luke 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury 2. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.  3. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: 

Mar 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing [their] knees worshipped him.

This is really crazy. Were the soldiers really worshipping him? They were mocking him.

Me:  No, the soldiers were not really worshipping him at first.  Between the time that they smote him on the head with a read, spit on  and the time they bowed their knees and worshipped him, a lot transpired.  It was not until their leader (the centurion) declared, “Truly, this man was the Son of God”. (Mark 15:39)

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

After "worshipping" him, they stayed continually at the temple, praising God. Mark's disciples did not know about this.

Me:  Mark’s disciples???  Where do you find a mention of Mark’s disciples?  John the Baptist’s, yes, but even Paul told those who wanted to follow him to only follow him as he followed Christ. 

And, even if we consider those who heard and followed Mark’s gospel to be his disciples, why would you expect them to know what was going on with worshippers elsewhere? 

 



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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2007 at 4:48pm

"Mark's disciples did not know about this." What I meant was the disciples in the book by Mark.  For example, John does not have twelve disciples. By that I mean, John names only a few.

The main point of my exegesis was that Jesus was not really worshipped as a god or God, when he was alive.

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