IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Lost Opportunity

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Whisper
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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 7:17am

Whisper: Thanks for your contribution.

Thank you very kind, Sir, now can we all jump to the next semester? yawn . . . yawn . . . snore . . . snore

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DavidC

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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 2:19pm

Wow...five stars from Whisper to an American Christian...who said there is no Santa Claus in Islam?

7672171 - where did that funny handle come from?
Welcome aboard. It was Gabriel that declared Muhammad to be the seal of the prophets, and the Qur'an is explicit in that no prophet is better than any other.

I don't know what the 'point' of Muhammad's ministry was supposed to be, but I do know that the Christianities around him were considered heretical by the Orthodox and Roman churches. I doubt the Ebionites were Trinitarian though, and disputing the Trinity

David C.

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Whisper
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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 3:03pm

Wow...five stars from Whisper to an American Christian...who said there is no Santa Claus in Islam?

My friend, always had the fondest for Christians all my life. I won't bore with the reasons. But I have lead mass at Lahore Cathedral, in my early years.

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BMZ

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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 4:41pm

Originally posted by Whisper

DavidC
Senior Member

I wish I could put a few more stars there for your brilliant contribution!

Whisper,

If I could I would make DavidC and Servetus have 6 Stars. Their brilliant comments always come at the right time.

The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response.

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mariyah

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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 5:14pm

Originally posted by Whisper

Whisper: Thanks for your contribution.

Thank you very kind, Sir, now can we all jump to the next semester? yawn . . . yawn . . . snore . . . snore

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

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Mauri

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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 5:55pm

DavidC: Muhammad did not fail in delivering his message. If you think his mission was to 'disprove' the Trinity, I think you are missing the point entirely.
I agree. God does everything well.
The problem is that man sees a little bit, jumps to a conclusion, and lands in the wrong place, than attributes failure to the prophet and/or God and starts looking for someone to blame....and 9 times out of 10 finds someone who differs in opinion to lay it on.

Hadith has evidence that Nestorian and Ebionite Christianities were familiar to Muhammad. These heretical Christianities were persecuted by the mainstream Christians but were protected by Muhammad if they paid a civil tax.

Yes. It is human nature to feel threatened by those who disagree. That tends to lead to pre-emptive attack. And, it usually has to do with money....values. There's always someone who wants to be richer (more righteous) than others and always someone who is afraid of losing what they have.
Ironically, the one who insists on being more righteous makes himself unrighteous by virtue of insisting on his righteousness at the expense of others And, the one who really has some truth, understanding and wisdom cannot lose it. Giving it away (sharing with others) only increases/strengthens what he already has. When we practice reasoning with others, our own reasoning improves. The validity of an opinion is only as sound as the reasoning that supports it. People who do not prove their opinions with sound reasoning are just guessing.
"And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess" (Quran 6:116)
The Quran constantly appeals to reason.

Muhammad was more accepting of his Christian neighbors than they were of accepting each other,
Yes. Conversely, the gentiles were more accepting of Jesus than the Jews.

Until I came here, I thought all Muslims were accepted by all Muslims. I was corrected on another thread when I asked about a certain sect of Muslims, so I was somewhat better prepared when I read that the Iraqi leader said that Saddam was not a Muslim.

Edited by Mauri

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Andalus

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Posted: 11 January 2007 at 11:18pm

Originally posted by 7672171

Mohamed post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

1) At the time of the 6th century, Christians were still divided on the issue. Hence, the "original Christian teachings" would not be a single school of thought.

2) The Trinity is an idea that has been established through the use of "implicit" verses that fit the "assumptions" founded by the church fathers who were trying to bring together their various ideas and beliefs about Jesus, his mission, his nature, and the resurrection..

3) The trinity has been disproven for Muslims, as a belief in a trinitarian god and being a Muslim are mutually exclusive.

Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).

Complex question, (this means you have buried an unproven assumption in your question), which is a logical fallacy.

Your statement, "Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours" uses the very ambiguous word, "seemingly", this is pretty much useless unless you can clarify. Also, "failed in his endeavours", please show which endeavours he failed at (specific exmaples). I am not privy to any failure he has made.

Hope this helps.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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amah
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Posted: 12 January 2007 at 12:34am

Originally posted by bmzsp

Their brilliant comments always come at the right time.

The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response.

I totally agree here.

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

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Interfaith Dialogue
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue

Author	Message
Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 7:17am
	Whisper: Thanks for your contribution. Thank you very kind, Sir, now can we all jump to the next semester? yawn . . . yawn . . . snore . . . snore
	IP Logged

DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 2:19pm
	Wow...five stars from Whisper to an American Christian...who said there is no Santa Claus in Islam? 7672171 - where did that funny handle come from? Welcome aboard. It was Gabriel that declared Muhammad to be the seal of the prophets, and the Qur'an is explicit in that no prophet is better than any other. I don't know what the 'point' of Muhammad's ministry was supposed to be, but I do know that the Christianities around him were considered heretical by the Orthodox and Roman churches. I doubt the Ebionites were Trinitarian though, and disputing the Trinity
	David C.
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 3:03pm
	Wow...five stars from Whisper to an American Christian...who said there is no Santa Claus in Islam? My friend, always had the fondest for Christians all my life. I won't bore with the reasons. But I have lead mass at Lahore Cathedral, in my early years.
	IP Logged

BMZ Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1852	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 4:41pm
	*Originally posted by Whisper* DavidC Senior Member I wish I could put a few more stars there for your brilliant contribution! Whisper, If I could I would make DavidC and Servetus have 6 Stars. Their brilliant comments always come at the right time. The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response.
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mariyah Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1283	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 5:14pm
	*Originally posted by Whisper* Whisper: Thanks for your contribution. Thank you very kind, Sir, now can we all jump to the next semester? yawn . . . yawn . . . snore . . . snore
	"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
	IP Logged

Mauri Senior Member Joined: 27 August 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 143	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 5:55pm
	DavidC: Muhammad did not fail in delivering his message. If you think his mission was to 'disprove' the Trinity, I think you are missing the point entirely. I agree. God does everything well. The problem is that man sees a little bit, jumps to a conclusion, and lands in the wrong place, than attributes failure to the prophet and/or God and starts looking for someone to blame....and 9 times out of 10 finds someone who differs in opinion to lay it on. Hadith has evidence that Nestorian and Ebionite Christianities were familiar to Muhammad. These heretical Christianities were persecuted by the mainstream Christians but were protected by Muhammad if they paid a civil tax. Yes. It is human nature to feel threatened by those who disagree. That tends to lead to pre-emptive attack. And, it usually has to do with money....values. There's always someone who wants to be richer (more righteous) than others and always someone who is afraid of losing what they have. Ironically, the one who insists on being more righteous makes himself unrighteous by virtue of insisting on his righteousness at the expense of others And, the one who really has some truth, understanding and wisdom cannot lose it. Giving it away (sharing with others) only increases/strengthens what he already has. When we practice reasoning with others, our own reasoning improves. The validity of an opinion is only as sound as the reasoning that supports it. People who do not prove their opinions with sound reasoning are just guessing. "And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess" (Quran 6:116) The Quran constantly appeals to reason. Muhammad was more accepting of his Christian neighbors than they were of accepting each other, Yes. Conversely, the gentiles were more accepting of Jesus than the Jews. Until I came here, I thought all Muslims were accepted by all Muslims. I was corrected on another thread when I asked about a certain sect of Muslims, so I was somewhat better prepared when I read that the Iraqi leader said that Saddam was not a Muslim. Edited by Mauri
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Andalus Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187	Posted: 11 January 2007 at 11:18pm
	*Originally posted by 7672171* Mohamed post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike. 1) At the time of the 6th century, Christians were still divided on the issue. Hence, the "original Christian teachings" would not be a single school of thought. 2) The Trinity is an idea that has been established through the use of "implicit" verses that fit the "assumptions" founded by the church fathers who were trying to bring together their various ideas and beliefs about Jesus, his mission, his nature, and the resurrection.. 3) The trinity has been disproven for Muslims, as a belief in a trinitarian god and being a Muslim are mutually exclusive. Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day). Complex question, (this means you have buried an unproven assumption in your question), which is a logical fallacy. Your statement, "Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours" uses the very ambiguous word, "seemingly", this is pretty much useless unless you can clarify. Also, "failed in his endeavours", please show which endeavours he failed at (specific exmaples). I am not privy to any failure he has made. Hope this helps.
	A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/
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amah Female Islam Moderator Group Joined: 18 March 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1334	Posted: 12 January 2007 at 12:34am
	*Originally posted by bmzsp* Their brilliant comments always come at the right time. The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response. I totally agree here.
	Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper). (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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