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Interfaith Dialogue
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7672171
 
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Quote 7672171 Replybullet Topic: Lost Opportunity
    Posted: 10 January 2007 at 4:46am

Mohamed post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).   

 

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Quote USA-NIQAABI Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2007 at 6:25am

Assalamu'Alaikum,

How could there be failure when the Quran speaks on these issues and it was Prophet Muhamaads(pbuh) responsibility as messanger to ensure that the message was being taught, memorized, and recorded....Allah(swt) is the one that sent the message and was taught to Prophet Muhamaad(pbuh) by Angel Jibreel to say what you've said is to say Allah(Swt) makes mistakes....and that is Shirk at the highest level.

 

 

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2007 at 3:12pm
Yes, a real big Lost Opportunity for those who are unable to see or hear. Try and get those ear plugs out, you will beging to feel just a wee better.
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2007 at 11:17pm

Originally posted by 7672171

Mohamed (s)post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.

Try rephrasing in English!

Originally posted by 7672171

                                      

This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

It wasn’t Muhammad(s)’s prerogative to disprove Trinity rather Allah’s and which He did in numerous places in Quraan. Muhammad (s)took care of the assignment given by Allah in such flying colors as no other Prophet apostle in history of mankind ever did and what his successors achieved is also unparalleled in the annal of all history.This point alone has filled the hearts of enemies with rancor against legacy but his lovers sing and send salutations day and night no matter where they are on the ground in the sea in the air no matter where. Do you get the picture?

Originally posted by 7672171

Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).   

 

It seems you are unaware of Michael Hart's 100 Greats, and Muhammad (s)being the top of his list or studied his Seerah, How would you know the MAN--Tell how old are you ?  so I can recommend appropriately.

As God said “Muhammad (s)was sent as the blessing to all the worlds”  and he did invite all the neighboring heads of the states  including Roman Caesar Heraclius who had been given vision about Muhammad(s) in his dream prior to arrival of emissary with Muhammad's  letter. He knew the truth and was ready to declare Shahada, but  did not, being afraid of the Roman public for his life as they did kill his bishop for accepting Islam. The King of Abyssinia accepted Islam , the Persian Emperor tore up the letter(so was his empire in short order). Rest is history!!

Don't you know  the ass u me routine doesn't work here.

The long and convoluted mythology of Trinitarian practices saning over many millenniums you will discovers a strong affinity of the most Caucasian/Aryan folks with Trinitarian ism. They just won’t let go!, when they do they will find some other ism like socialism, humanism, hinduism,communism,or even Bushism etc

can take the mule or horse to the water but can't make it drink!!

Trinity Combo's::

From the earliest ages, the concept of the Great Goddess was a trinity and the model for all subsequent trinities, female, male or mixed.  Anatolian villages in the 7th millennium B.C. worshipped a Goddess in three aspects – as a young woman, a birth-giving matron, and an old woman.  (See, Merlin Stone, When God Was A Woman at 17). 

This typical Virgin-Mother-Crone combination was Parvati-Durga-Uma (Kali) in India, Ana-Babd-Macha (the Morrigan) in Iceland, or in Greece Hebe-Hera-Hecate, the three Moerae, the three Gorgons, the three Graeae, the three Horae, etc.  Among the Vikins, the threefold Goddess appeared as the Norns; among the Romans, as the Fates or Fortunae; among the Druids, as Diana Triformis.  The Triple Goddess had more than three: she had hundreds of forms.

Pre-Roman Latium worshipped her as the Capitoline Triad under the collective name of Uni, “The One,” a cognate of yoni.  Her three personae were Juventas the Virgin, Juno the Mother, and Menarva or Minerva the wise Crone.  Under the empire, Juventas was ousted to make room for a masculine member of the trinity, Jupiter.  (See, Georges Dumezil, Archaic Roman Religion at 116). 

Some modern scholars refer to the two-female, one-male Capitoline Triad of the later period as “three gods” – as if they might describe a group of two women and one man as “three men.”  (See, J.B. Carter, The Religious Life of Ancient Rome at 26).

 
Cumont says, “Oriental theologians developed the idea that the world forms a trinity; it is three in one and one in three.”  (See, Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans at 69).

The masculine scholar substitutes the neuter “world” for “Goddess,” though they were in a sense synonymous.  It was she who established the Trinitarian form of Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer.  Even though Brahmans evolved a male trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva to play these parts, Tantric scriptures insisted that the Triple Goddess had created these three gods in the first place.  (See, Amaury de Riencourt, Sex and Power in History at 167).

Mother of the Greek gods was a trinity composed of Virgin Hebe, Mother Hera, and Crone Hecate; at Stymphalus she was worshipped as Child, Bride, and Widow.  (See, Robert Graves, The Greek Myths at 1, 52).

Each of her personae could be a trinity again, so she could be the Muses or the Ninefold Goddess.  Hecate was called Triformis and shown with three faces, each a lunar phase.  Among the Irish she was the Triple Morrigan, or Morgan, sometimes multiplied into “nine sisters” who kept the Cauldron of Regeneration and ruled the western isle of the dead.  (See, Robert Graves, The White Goddess at 406; Alwyn & Brinely Rees, Celtic Heritage at 193).

The Goddess Triformis ruled heaven as Virgin, earth as Mother, and the underworld as Crone, or Hel, or Queen of the Shades.  This was remembered even in Chaucer’s time, for his Palamon invoked her “Three Forms,” Luna in heaven, Diana on earth, Proserpine in hell.  (See, Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales at 81, 511).  The old name of Sicily, Trinacria, invoked her as a “center of the earth” with three realms.

 
Bardic romances abounded in manifestations of the Triple Goddess.  Wayland the Smith married her, after she first appeared to him as three magic doves.  (See, Thomas Keightley, The World Guide to Gnomes, Fairies, Elves and Other Little People at 215)  King Arthur went to Avalon with her.  The triadic Guinevere was another version of her.  Sir Marhaus (Mars) encountered her as the Three Damosels at their magic fountain: the eldest “threesome winters of age, wearing a garland of gold; the second thirty winters of age, wearing a circlet of gold; the youngest fifteen winters of age, wearing a wreath of flowers.”  (See, Sir Thomas Malory, Le Morte d’Arthur at 1, 115).  Fifteen was the number of the pagan Virgin Kore, the pentacle in the apple.  Mythic virgin mothers, like that of Zoroaster, typically gave birth at the age of fifteen.  Double that was the Mother’s age, double again the age of the Crone.

 
The notion of a trinity appeared during the 14th century B.C., a popular Babylonian trinity was composed of Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar – Sun, Moon, and Star.  In Greece this was repeated as Helios the sun, Selene the Moon, and Aphrodite the star.  A Father-Mother-Son trinity was worshipped at Costopitum as Jupiter Dolichenus, Celestial Brigantia and Salus.  (See, Jack Lindsay, The Origins of Astrology at 112, 328, 375; Dorothy Norman, The Hero at 71).

 Gnostic versions of the trinity followed the Father-Mother-Son patterns of the contemporary east, with the Holy Ghost recognized as a female Sophia, the Dove, worshipped as the Great Goddess in Constantinople, and viewed by most Gnostics as the Shakti of God.  The Christian God was originally modeled on Far-Eastern heaven-fathers such as Brahma and Dyaus Pitar, all of whom needed their female sources of “Power,” or else they could not act.  (See, Heinrich Zimmer, Myths and Symbols in Indian Art and Civilization at 25) 

Therefore, a female member of the triad was essential even to God.  Among Arabian Christians there was apparently a holy trinity of God, Mary, and Jesus, worshipped as an interchangeable replacement for the Egyptian trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.  (See, Geoffrey Ashe, The Virgin at 206).

 During the Christian era, all-male trinities became popular among Germanic tribes.  Woden, Thor, and Saxnot were worshiped together by the Saxons of the 8th and 9th centuries.  Norsemen called them Odin, Tyr, and Frey.  According to a certain fragmentary myth, the Triple Goddess seems to have burned as a witch.  She had to be burned to ashes three times.  Afterward, youth, beauty, and love in the person of Freya departed from Asgard; and there was war in heaven.  (See, Brian Branston, Gods of the North at 112, 213-14).

American currently use Father-Son & Holy Ghost combo right

 



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2007 at 1:32am
Muhammad did not fail in delivering his message. If you think his mission was to 'disprove' the Trinity, I think you are missing the point entirely.

Hadith has evidence that Nestorian and Ebionite Christianities were familiar to Muhammad. These heretical Christianities were persecuted by the mainstream Christians but were protected by Muhammad if they paid a civil tax.

Muhammad was more accepting of his Christian neighbors than they were of accepting each other,
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2007 at 2:26am

Originally posted by DavidC

Muhammad did not fail in delivering his message. If you think his mission was to 'disprove' the Trinity, I think you are missing the point entirely.

Hadith has evidence that Nestorian and Ebionite Christianities were familiar to Muhammad. These heretical Christianities were persecuted by the mainstream Christians but were protected by Muhammad if they paid a civil tax.

Muhammad was more accepting of his Christian neighbors than they were of accepting each other,

Well-said, David.  And the same (emboldened by me) can be said of the Jews in Medinah and nearby areas.

Best Regards

BMZ

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Quote 7672171 Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2007 at 3:26am

Does Islam not believe in predestination, isnt everything written in heaven and unchangeable.

To USA Niqaabi: On the contrary I believe that no failure has occured on Gods part because it is his will entirely that the Christian view of the Trinitarian God flourishes to this day, it was his will that his word spread throughout the known world, it is his will that even those that do not accept his son as lord and saviour know of him and have consciously rejected him (Muslims, Hindus and Jews).

You have rejected him, he who was immaculately conceived (even in your eyes), he who raised the dead cured the ill, expelled demons.

He who was so accurately prophesised of by Isaiah and he who you believe will return to judge the living and the dead.

The WORD of god, one of three parts of the one lord god, his WORD his living and breathing example to humanity.

Disprove the Trinity? Never, for the MAN could barely understand it.

A great law maker and military leader, just like Alexander of Macedon, he also proved the term that Absolute Power is Absolute corruption.

Whisper: Thanks for your contribution.

Sign Reader: Your first comment does not warrant a response, to your second comment, you have simply volunteered an opinion and made no genuine attempt to answer my question. I didnt ask you whether he convinced you, I asked you why he didnt convince me or anyone else outside of the Arab's in his day, oh sorry yes there was that Roman who agreed but then just changed his mind.

David C: David I disagree, how could Mohammad lay claim to being the seal and the greatest among his prophets, was he not sent to convert the wayward Arab's and the Jews and Christians who had become misguided by misinterpreting gods will.

Sign Reader,

On your third comment, I grow tired of re-hashed writings of Jewish academics that have already been adequately addressed and discredited on numerous occasions. The fact is that you dont understand the concept of trinity ( but thats OK, neither did Mohammad).

 

 

 

 

 

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2007 at 7:14am
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I wish I could put a few more stars there for your brilliant contribution!
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