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wafi
 
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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 12:54am

Okidok, let`s depersonalize the discussion. Think in Mr. Bork`s statement there are several things to discuss ... i.e. what`s moral? what`s ethik? I will leave this discussion out and only to look for the consequenzes for a society. (I`m only an engineer ... and they always are first looking to consequenzes)

What Mr. Bork said means as consequenz that you need a very strong goverment, with very powerfull methods of restriction and of cause powerfull way`s of controll systems. I only have to look app. 15 years back and 150km to the east ... and I saw a very strong goverment, with very powerfull restrictions and controll systems ... I`m just writing about formal DDR or let`s call East Germany. What was the sucsess of this country? It broke down.

One can discuss the political circumstances after WWII and to realize that starting position was different to West Germany ... but after „buying“ the former DDR we had to realize that the people in former DDR were unflexible and without visions of what would be possible or how to create new ideas. Only a very small number of inhabitants of former DDR were really creative. They simply did not learn to look for other ways, testing new ideas, accepting also failures. The „strong“ society was everywhere, checking everything and trying to bring new ideas, ended more or less mostly in society structures without any effect.
 Take a look around you to societies which are very strict, look to Afghanistan, take a look to China etc .. You will find everywhere same situation, in restricted societies innovations, technical sience are extremly seldom. On the other hand, look to the US or look to old Europe, you find a lot of creative ideas, technical progress.
 One can discuss the reason, I would say, that due to the fact that in a more or less free society it`s more difficult to survive and to find a place in this society, so it needs more input by everybody. If you`ve been told how to think, how to live ... why you should be creative to look for new ideas? In worst case you´ll be punished, think of Gallileo etc.
 In the end, progress needs a more or less free society.
 As stated, this free society did not find an answer up to now, how to proceed as society for the people. Individualimn has also, next to progress, a dekadent aspect. But as learned looking into the history, the „strong“ society maybe has more moral ... but on the other side stopping progress. Look again to China, 15 years ago, more or less an agriculture country, opend a little bit the way of living and exploded to an industrial country.
 Of cause ... one have to discuss the problems of energy and ecology to ensure living in the future, but again, to find solutions, you need creative thinking people, trying to go other way`s, failing and winning. This is only possible in a free society.

 But ... today, we have the way back to a restricted society by the rulers. No, I don`t mean GWB or Cheney or Merkel, I mean Exxon, Microsoft, BP, Thyssen etc...  The new god they made is called Certifications with ISO 9000ff, HSE, ISM, ISPS ....  result ... now again personal ... I should work on a transportation concept for one Global Player ... I`ve got a CD Rom full of statements and power point presentations. I looked yesterday 4 hours into that matter, but I could not even find the datas of the cargo to be transorted, no length, width, heights or weights .... but hundrets of pages defining quality-, health and enviromental requirements  etc
 but, as said nothing fundamental about what they want to transport. That`s the effect of retapism in a nice controlled company without people who even do not know what they are doing, but knowing nothing of course certified!
 No, Mr Bork try to find a simple solution for a complex system. That`s his general failure.
 
 But even if I did not want to discuss moral and ethic I have to write a little bit to this  statement: „The alternative to censorship, legal and moral, will be a brutalized and chaotic culture“ It is a matter of fact that restrictions in Europe are much less than in the States. We do not have death penality, our justice system is focused on rehabilitation and not only to punish, we have less restrictions for people coming to visit Europe, even less restrictions to live in Europe as in the States. We have in fact less robbery, less murders, less crime at all as in the States and of cause less censorship and less restrictions. Following Mr. Bork, that would not be possible. Due to the fact that this is reality, Mr. Bork must be, simple to say, wrong with his analyse.

 

Peter

 

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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 11:11am

Hi Peter,

You wrote:
I think you {Servetus} are mixing up problems without looking to the fundamental problem in the background.

Maybe so.  I think that the situation is at best complex and I am trying to keep my hands on both of the bull’s horns.  As I said above (page 1, second post), though, it is also entirely possible that I am still in a fever-induced hallucination.  

Quote:
When you are talking about pronographic, sex and drugs, no rock`n roll  but satanism than this is of cause the result of a missleaded education.

I am interested.  In what way can it be said that, for example, Aleister Crowley and Rudolf von Sebottendorf were wrongly or improperly educated?   

Quote:
To discuss this matter, I have a small problem to do that on an islamic webside, because the background of my critic is also touching maybe islamic feelings. So please appologize, I do not want to argue against islam, I only want to show my point of view.

I appreciate your good manners. In deference to our Muslim hosts and fellow participants, it is advisable that we keep the discussion within proper guidelines.  Provided that things are said with decorum, tact and a certain amount of diplomacy, I have found few things that the Muslims are incapable of tolerating.  Muslims are full, if at times seemingly beleaguered, citizens of America too and I started this thread for them as well.    

Quote:
Ok, let`s start. One of human fundaments is sexuality, otherwise I`m sure, this board would not exist.

Exactly.

Quote:
Sexual attitudes were always based in the past on the social structures of the society. Wield power on sexuality was a factor of power in all structures.

Agreed, in principle.

Quote:
Today`s situation in Europe and the US is, that the social structures are more or less destroyed. Family, if existing, is only a very small community, due to job etc ... family structures with grandpa or grandma ... etc, is more or less not existing any more ...

And soon enough, with an eye toward Aldous Huxley, we shall all be hatched from the Human Genome Project’s fetal factory.  “Oh brave new world, that has such people in’t.”

Quote:
We are living in an individualistic world.

In a very general sense, what America does today, Europe will do tomorrow.  Individualism can also be said to be, in its more unappealing forms, mere selfishness, atomization and isolation.  Marilyn Manson, one of America’s more dubious cultural gifts to the world, as I understand, took his name from a combination, a potent symbolical amalgamation, of the archetypal “rugged individualist” gone awry, Charles Manson, and the sacrificial “goddess,” Marilyn Monroe.  I think the message is that, if you leave John Wayne out in the desert too long, he becomes Charles Manson.

Quote:
This fact is creating several problems. Social control is going to zero, an individualistic world ask for individual responsibility …

I don’t mean to seem to interrupt but it helps me to parse things, or ideas, into their constituent parts.  I would say that, with social self-control going to zero and with an increasingly debased citizenry fed on pornography and propaganda, the American Republic, already making a grab at universal empire (on the old Roman model) could well make a descent either into anarchy or authoritarianism.

Quote:
… same time the rulers realize that they are loosing their power and instead of power to rulers, companies, who do not care about social life, got the power.

Good point.  Nationalism is passé.

Quote:
This effect creates a countermovement of people, willing to have social control. One point this countermovement realized is the sexual power and i.e. virginity is one point of propaganda of this countermovement ...

Well, if Karl Marx claimed that religion is the opiate of the masses, one might say that religion (especially its Western forms) has also been its chastity belt.  What’s wrong with that?  Although it’s been awhile since I read him, and his theories have been left to atrophy in the face of the more evidently efficacious Prozacian and Xanaxian therapies, Sigmund Freud argued that culture and civilization are the actual consequences (or results) of repressed and sublimated libido.  Get rid of repression, the argument seems to go, and say goodbye to civilization.  I think (and the Muslims can help me here) that there is a hadith, or saying of Muhammad, that predicts that, in the final analysis, and toward the culmination of the Age or era, the Muslims will follow the Christians (West?) even into a lizard’s hole and that humans will copulate like donkeys in the street (pornography?).      

Quote:
This movement based on more or less dogmatic christians (but also islamists) are trying to state sexuality as evil.

One notes that, from a Western standpoint, Islam changes over the centuries.  In times past, the West could point to Islam, especially its allowance of polygyny, as a religion best left to libertines and voluptuaries.  Now, these days, as the need arises, it can be conjoined with Christianity as repressive and restrictive.  Have you noticed that?

I might also mention that I have never known even dogmatic Christians who are stating that sexuality qua [as] sexuality is evil.  The early Christians left the orgies and vomitoria (vomitoriums?) of pagan Rome for the sanctity of monogamous marriage.  They did and do recognize the sacred nature of sex.  Not only was marriage elevated to the level of a sacrament but it is the metaphor for the relationship of Christ to his Church.      

Quote:
Results as a 4 year old kid, touching  a nursery teacher is not allowed to go in the kindergarden any more due sexual harassment or a teacher, fired out of his job, due to the fact that a part of a men`s body was drawn to the table during sex education ...

This seems to me more a general reaction to what is the apparent rise in the institutional “abuse” of children.  Some cultures even in liberated, post-Christian Europe remain a bit squeamish about that issue.  Soon enough, and as things either progress or digress, take a card, one might expect that the “unspeakable vice of the Greeks,” that is to say, pederasty, shall become the basis of a new familial modality.  “Oh brave new world, that has such people in’t.”     

Quote:
The easier way, to have social limits, propaganded by some Christians or by the Islam, means in the end to turn back the wheel of history. Life in the US or in Europe as known in the moment could not exist any longer, because to turn back …

My point is and has been that the wheel, or, to use Arnold J. Toynbee’s image, the juggernaut of history is already turning backward: and what we are seeing is what he called, using the Biblical phrase, a “vain repetition of the Gentiles,” a return to (or, rather, a recrudescence of) ancient, pagan norms.  “We too are hyperboreans,” Nietzsche says, in his anti-Christian polemic, AntiChrist, and harkens back to a Classical Europe, scrubbed clean of its Christian and thus of its Semitic corruption.  To my view, then, it is the pagans and the neo-pagans who are the recidivists.  The new generation of hyperboreans -the nihilist children of Nietzsche- are on the rise and Italy is calling upon the services of the exorcists. 

Quote:
Btw. I think this guys called Taliban or OBL ... they realized very well the western problem and their answer was a more fundamentalistic way of their religion. And ... it`s like a joke ... in principle their ideas are very close to ideas of GWB.

Excellent point.  We will get back to this later.  In the meantime, you might enjoy this article, as it, in a way, addresses this issue.  It’s entitled “What Osama might have told America:”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK02Aa04.html

Best regards,

Serv



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wafi
 
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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 1:13pm

okidok Sir

it will be not so easy to answer you. Unfortunately I have to ask my dictionary book for some words ... and it`s interesting to try to discuss a little bit more deeper in english language. So, I think you have to wait a little while for an answer from my side. Will be out of the office tomorrow.

 Whatever, if you like, you can have a look on my HP ... www.peter-gottwald.de to see what I`m doing, which of cause shows also a little bit the way I have to think. If you see this pictures you will understand that mystic is a little bit out of my experience  

 I never heared about Aleister Crowley, I only red today an article in Wikipedia, which is I think a point to start, but not a real idea what this guy did. I know Rudolf von Sebottendorf, but in my view he is not really interesting in history or even in pilosophie. Think, as far as I understood what happened that time, quite a similar situation as today, people running arround searching for a sence .... trying to find background in mystic, race, because they had to realize that their basics broke down ( at least in WWI ) and they searched for new answers. In this meaning I think he was missleaded.

 But ... my favorit ... is William Godwin

best regards

Peter



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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:40pm

Hi Peter,

 

Quote:
Unfortunately I have to ask my dictionary book for some words ... and it`s interesting to try to discuss a little bit more deeper in english language.

 

I am glad that it is interesting for you and that you are not easily annoyed.  I, unfortunately for me, cannot even “get by” (to use the Berlitz expression) in German, the native tongue of my paternal great grandfather, so I am glad that you are willing to have such a go here with me in English.

 

Please know also that if I sometimes use unusual words, it is because I write fast, often with a severely limited time at public libraries, and because I try to be as precise in my use of language as is possible (thanks, George Orwell).  Given that you are such an obviously blessed and talented engineer (ref your HP), I suspect that you can appreciate that part of me. 

 

Best regards and happy sailing,

 

Serv



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Quote Hanan Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Servetus

Hi Peter,

Quote:
Unfortunately I have to ask my dictionary book for some words ... and it`s interesting to try to discuss a little bit more deeper in english language.

I am glad that it is interesting for you and that you are not easily annoyed.  I, unfortunately for me, cannot even “get by” (to use the Berlitz expression) in German, the native tongue of my paternal great grandfather, so I am glad that you are willing to have such a go here with me in English.

Please know also that if I sometimes use unusual words, it is because I write fast, often with a severely limited time at public libraries, and because I try to be as precise in my use of language as is possible (thanks, George Orwell).  Given that you are such an obviously blessed and talented engineer (ref your HP), I suspect that you can appreciate that part of me. 

Best regards and happy sailing,

Serv

 

Dear Servetus, you are one of the nicest people here and I follow yours and Peter's dialogue with great interest. I enjoy your use of words and wish that I could hear you speak. 

Peter, your command of the English language is very good. I hope to read much more from you on this Forum. Are you a "Grüner?"

Peace, Hanan

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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 10:56pm

Good morning Hanan and Serv

@Serv, does not matter using unusual words. It`s a good trainig for myselfe. As you saw, I`m working in the shipping biz, so in general would say nearly 90% of conversation in my job is based on ... more or less english language. So don`t care, I will figure out, if I do not understand directly.

@Hanan ... Grüner ... hm, long story. To shorten it a little bit, I`ve worked in this party some years based on two points, enviromental issues and pacifist issues. The rest, how to get political power, how to distribute power in the party ... were never an issue I was interesting in. I left this party after they stated their ok for military action in Afghanistan. As pacifist I do not believe that you can change anything with violance.

 Think your question was a little bit to which political category I`m belonging. Well ... to name it, might be a problem to understand it, because in "normal" use of this word, it`s used by politicans to bring fear to people. I do not know why, because as anarchist the fundamental basic is that everybody is allowed to believe what he want`s to believe and my personal freedom ends at the freedom of the next. But... as stated, politicans are using anarchy as picture of worst thing which could be happen. May be, they are afraid of loosing their power  

By the way, that`s one point in the Islam which I think is very interesting. More or less decentral organisation, no "leader", no power structure.

Hm ... now I have to go on the highway ... and it`s snowing ...

best regards

Peter

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Quote Hanan Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2007 at 5:36am

Hello Peter,

I hope that the snow, and possibly ice underneath it, wasn’t too much of a road hazard, and inshallah you’ll always be safe on the road.

Actually, my question wasn’t so much about your political party affiliation -- I already realized that you’re not a Republican  -- but rather about where you stand on issues such as the environment, civil- and human rights. By your answers you’ve confirmed the “picture” I had of you. I am also a pacifist and environmentalist, and have been involved in the environmental struggle in my part of the world for a long time.

I have never been a paying member of any political party because the old saying about “power corrupts” is true, as we saw with the Grüne. When they changed from wool-sweaters to suit and tie, and switched from growing bio-veggies and farm-animals on their properties to becoming political animals, they lost credibility. I support those who respect the environment, and uphold civil- and human rights. I like what you said about “my personal freedom ends at the freedom of the next” and that politicians trying to scare us out of our wits just to stay in power.

Drive safe.

Peace, Hanan

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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2007 at 9:37am

Hanan , I totaly agree what you wrote about "Die Grünen" and unfortunately I see no political movement which would be a solution. Today more than 35% do not go to vote any more, because ... it`s an old "sponti speech" if voting would change the world it would be prohibited

So in the end I arrived ... only 300km, but 6 hours to go ... or better to say ... to stop and go

 

best regards

Peter

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