Hi Wafi (and welcome to the discussions from me, a non-Muslim guest),

You undoubtedly do.  And thank you for contributing to this thread.

I must respectfully disagree.  What is going on at home, at least in plenty of American homes, is this:  Child A is downloading hatecore music to his I-pod; Child B is learning to be a car thief by playing Grand Theft Auto in the basement or alternately being nursed on the regurgitations of South Park; and Child C, if, in this era of zero-population growth, there happens to actually be a Child C, is, please excuse the colloquialism, hanging out with his “Goth” friends, learning Enochian sex magik rituals from a spin-off band of the Insane Clown Posse and engraving an inverted pentagram with a broken coke bottle into his forehead.

Where are the parents?  Good question.  The mother is reading the ever-liberated and liberating Cosmopolitan, formulating career strategies and making sure her legs look good whilst climbing the corporate ladder and the father is generally, well, absent (or, in many case, unknown).  Perhaps this picture is a bit bleak, but caricatures, as I’ve learned from Jon Stewart and Comedy Central, are sometimes considerably more effective than mere statements of the facts. 

It is how to maintain the stability of the family in circumstances such as the one I describe above that is, to my mind, a large part of the issue.

I hope that you receive only the best in return for your commendable efforts, Wafi.   

Are you suggesting that I simply learn to embrace the deliberate blasphemies of Cannibal Corpse and the hate messages of Brutal Attack?  Should one simply be passively content to let the culture go swirling off and down the toilet as it will?  Be assured that I do know what prohibitions are: I was sent to a strict, boarding, parochial school when I was a boy, and I still managed to follow the pied pipers of (drug) culture out into the vast meadows and  wastelands and there I remained for decades.     

I don’t deny that my attitude toward anything is of paramount importance, but, again, if I am hearing you correctly, are you suggesting that my attitude vis-à-vis what I consider to be the at times deliberate corruption of American youth by the marketeers and main stream media should be one of acquiescence, toleration and acceptance?

Serv

I think that`s the point. Ok .. also in Germany a father alone with two kids is not normal today ... but it works fine. Of cause I have to do my job and sometimes it`s hard between preparing stowage of heavy lift cargo on vessels (that`s basicly what I`m doing as engineer), housekeeping, cooking .... to find enough time for kids and ... last but not least, for myselfe, BUT it was my decition to have kids and it`s my responsibility to do all efforts to ensure that these kids can grow up and to find their way. Think it`s true that a lot of parents do not do their job ... but it`s not the point to blame society or whatever ... it`s up to everybody to change it, simply in his own life.  And really nobody can tell me, that due job or whatever it could not be possible to take his/her responsebility for the kids.

 Well, of cause, but as said, the only way is to live it. Circumstances might be worst, but even under worst circumstances different ways are possible. I.e. friends of my kids are nearly daily here at our home. I know that some of them have parents who do not look after their kids, TV is on the whole day, or I-pod .... whatever. I don`t care. When they are here, it`s ok, of cause sometimes they are playing with the st**id playstation, but most of the time they are playing soccer or they are sailing with my son`s boat (of cause not now...) or repairing their bicycles, whatever ... Even the worst kids are fine, when they are here, but they need to have possibilities i.e. tools for building something, repairing or whatever and the freedom to make failures. And even the worst kids, they are accepting limits here. Maybe I look sometimes angry   but normaly I do not have to forbid anything.

hm ... what I`m doing is, that I take my kids with me to concerts of music I love. I.e. Jethro Tull or, last year a Doors festival (of cause not the original ones ... would be impossible). On the other hand, if I want to listen to my music, I normaly have to look into the rooms of my kids ...

 And, one of my hobby is motorbiking, so of cause my son is sitting aft of me while my daughter now is driving her own motorbike and of cause we`re going to motorbike parties  together. Btw. I show my daughter how to maintain the bike ... but it`s her job to do it at her bike.

 I try to show them as many possibilities as possible and they met „Rocker“, freaks, seamen, Anarchists, „high society“ ... „normal“ people ... of cause we discussed about drugs, sex and prevention etc ... main point is, if you know the „enemy“ you can deal with it, if you just ignore ... *****will happen.     

That`s a good point, but the problem is not to tolerate or to accept the way of life-style given by society. The only problem is to find your own way and to follow your way. I`m pretty sure that the problems in the States are similar to Germany and I do not see any movement in the moment to change the society to a better way with more freedom and personel responsibility. In fact, I feel, that we`re just going the other way  with more stringency, more social controll systems ... but, this systems will fail and they do it just right now.

 Maybe I`m an old, long-haired hippie ;-) ...  imagine all the people, living for today ;-)

You see, that`s maybe the difference .. I normaly take everybody seriouse. That`s the reason I do not have seriouse problems with the kids

I don`t agree. It`s up to you to listen .. and it`s up to the kids to listen. But I think in general, as far as I can read in newspaper, but also what I learned during several stays in the US, there might be a society problem with sexuality at all in the US. I.e. Clinton and Monica ... hm.. in Europe this story might be in some newspapers a couple of days, but impeachment ???? Why?  A man and a woman , that`s the story,  end of the story. So what? Nobody would care about it, their problem. Both were old enough to decide what they want to do. On the other hand, thinking of Columbine, the moral in regards of rifles are totaly different. For us, as European, it is not normal to have a rifle or pistol, 

I think I understand ... but, as far as I can see, this young people have no ideals and are searching for a way, for a comunity ... to feel not alone. Maybe they find a religion or gothics or a fascistic group ... but reason is, not to be alone and to find a meaning for their life. I know ... a lot of readers will not agree with religion in same sentence than fasistic ... but please appologise, I think the reason for each group is not to feel alone and may be people find in a religion a feeling good for them. But ... we also have to realize that this group can bring violance to others, like i.e. OBL.

Well, I don`t like it either, but I`m able to switch off. There might be an audience otherwise this would be stopped.  Again it`s a question of how people are living together. Might be not the best way. Change it!

 No, not inure. Switch off. I.e. .... I`m the terriblest customer of local hardware store, because I normaly switch off the TV`s telling what I have to buy ... One time the manager was a little bit angry .. I told him, hey guy two possibilities, I buy my stuff here without the bloody TV`s or I buy my stuff in an other store ... since that time he accepted ... not really, because they made some covers on the switch off buttom, I don`t care, so I plug off the electricity ;-)

 agree, as I wrote in an other thread here ... freddom of speech is not equal to freedom of lies.

 Well, I`m a relalist, so I`m trying to do the impossible.

 But you`re right, a lot of old „hippies“ ... they are only dreaming about an other life, but doing nothing to realize it.

best regards

Peter

Hi Serv,

if I would not enjoy to discuss with you, I would not do it

I think you are mixing up problems without looking to the fundamental problem in the background. When you are talking about pronographic, sex and drugs, no rock`n roll  but satanism than this is of cause the result of a missleaded education. To discuss this matter, I have a small problem to do that on an islamic webside, because the background of my critic is also touching maybe islamic feelings. So please appologize, I do not want to argue against islam, I only want to show my point of view.

 Ok, let`s start. One of human fundaments is sexuality, otherwise I`m sure, this board would not exist. Sexual attitudes were always based in the past on the social structures of the society. Wield power on sexuality was a factor of power in all structures.

 Today`s situation in Europe and the US is, that the social structures are more or less destroyed. Family, if existing, is only a very small community, due to job etc ... family structures with grandpa or grandma ... etc, is more or less not existing any more. We are living in an individualistic world. This fact is creating several problems. Social control is going to zero, an individualistic world ask for individual responsibility, same time the rulers realize that they are loosing their power and instead of power to rulers, companies, who do not care about social life, got the power. This effect creates a countermovement of people, willing to have social control. One point this countermovement realized is the sexual power and i.e. virginity is one point of propaganda of this countermovement. This movement based on more or less dogmatic christians (but also islamists) are trying to state sexuality as evil. Results as a 4 year old kid, touching  a nursery teacher is not allowed to go in the kindergarden any more due sexual harassment or a teacher, fired out of his job, due to the fact that a part of a men`s body was drawn to the table during sex education ... showing a deep disability to realize that sexuality is just nature. Of course such countermovement creates also a countermovement ... just in the opposite way. Due to morbid fundamentalist moral on the one side, sexuality with same morbid character is used by different groups, like your Satanists, but I would also say like in many movies and of course in the pornographic industry. Both sides are growing and btw. I`m getting app. 80 e-mails per day, stating to buy viagra or enlarge it ... whatever ... I`m not amoused of this, you can believe.

 What to do? I do not really know. For myselfe and my kids I decided to go the individual way with own responsibility and own decitions. Sexuality is normal in our family, that means we are discussing whatever one is interesting to discuss. I`m pretty sure that my kids have their own secrets, so what, if they want to discuss, they are welcome. But to go the individual way with own responsibility is, I think a hard way to go.

 The easier way, to have social limits, propaganded by some Christians or by the Islam, means in the end to turn back the wheel of history. Life in the US or in Europe as known in the moment could not exist any longer, because to turn back, means to install again family structures as we had, that means i.e. no change of living place due another job etc. All what`s necessary to live in this kind of industrial society would have to be changed.

 The problem today is, that our way of industrial society have to find answers to social questions. I.e. my parants are living 600km from my hometown. They are now 73 years old. In the moment everything is fine, but I really have no idea to handle my life if one of them would be seriousely sick. 

Btw. I think this guys called Taliban or OBL ... they realized very well the western problem and their answer was a more fundamentalistic way of their religion. And ... it`s like a joke ... in principle their ideas are very close to ideas of GWB.  

best regards

Peter

Edit: I changed some wordings today.