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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 8:24am

Hi Wafi (and welcome to the discussions from me, a non-Muslim guest),

You wrote:
one foreword, I have two kids, now 14 and 18 years old and I`m living alone with my kids for the last 6 years. So ... I think I know a little bit something about, how to react and how to work with kids.

You undoubtedly do.  And thank you for contributing to this thread.

Quote:
I think the main question is not what type of music they are listening or movie in TV or cinema ... think the main point, what`s going on at home.

I must respectfully disagree.  What is going on at home, at least in plenty of American homes, is this:  Child A is downloading hatecore music to his I-pod; Child B is learning to be a car thief by playing Grand Theft Auto in the basement or alternately being nursed on the regurgitations of South Park; and Child C, if, in this era of zero-population growth, there happens to actually be a Child C, is, please excuse the colloquialism, hanging out with his “Goth” friends, learning Enochian sex magik rituals from a spin-off band of the Insane Clown Posse and engraving an inverted pentagram with a broken coke bottle into his forehead.

Where are the parents?  Good question.  The mother is reading the ever-liberated and liberating Cosmopolitan, formulating career strategies and making sure her legs look good whilst climbing the corporate ladder and the father is generally, well, absent (or, in many case, unknown).  Perhaps this picture is a bit bleak, but caricatures, as I’ve learned from Jon Stewart and Comedy Central, are sometimes considerably more effective than mere statements of the facts. 

Quote:
Think my kids learned that what ever happens outside our small family, the family situation ist stable.

It is how to maintain the stability of the family in circumstances such as the one I describe above that is, to my mind, a large part of the issue.

Quote:
That is a daily ritual, to have a common breakfast, when they are coming from school, to have lunch (NO fastfood!) and to have a comon dinner together. To give room for discussions, to comfort them if necessary ... of cause to have fun with them ... In the end, to show them your way of life.

I hope that you receive only the best in return for your commendable efforts, Wafi.   

Quote:
But if you feed them with distrust, with prohibition ... you can be sure, that the "arrow" will go in a direction, you do not like at all.

Are you suggesting that I simply learn to embrace the deliberate blasphemies of Cannibal Corpse and the hate messages of Brutal Attack?  Should one simply be passively content to let the culture go swirling off and down the toilet as it will?  Be assured that I do know what prohibitions are: I was sent to a strict, boarding, parochial school when I was a boy, and I still managed to follow the pied pipers of (drug) culture out into the vast meadows and  wastelands and there I remained for decades.     

Quote:
It`s not the music ... it`s not a movie, not even wrong friends ... it`s up to you and your attitude to give the arrow the right or wrong direction.

I don’t deny that my attitude toward anything is of paramount importance, but, again, if I am hearing you correctly, are you suggesting that my attitude vis-à-vis what I consider to be the at times deliberate corruption of American youth by the marketeers and main stream media should be one of acquiescence, toleration and acceptance?

Serv


 



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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 9:22am

Duende,

You wrote:
Serv, I am really 'feeling' your pain during this rant …

It’s funny you should mention that, because yesterday I almost included that phrase, “feel my pain,” in my post to Ops.

Quote:
… on subjects more weighty than the assaults on one's  spiritual wellbeing at the check out.

     

Quote:
... In other words, if you don't like it where you are: leave.

For the most part, and though I suffer from wanderlust from having already traveled much of the planet, I do like where I am and most of the people I care about the most are here.  I think, at the moment, I am just trying, in my own imperfect way, to be one of these:

http://store.greenfeet.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5501-02014-0000&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;WT.mc_id=NexTag5501-02014-0000

Quote:
Suffice to say, Miguelito, if you ever feel the urge to rediscover the roots in the land of Cervantes, we would love to have you!

Gracias, hermana, y yo agvadesco hamabilidad!  (I hope I said that right.) 

Serveto


 



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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 9:49am

Originally posted by Servetus


I must respectfully disagree.  What is going on at home, at least in plenty of American homes, is this:  Child A is downloading .........

Where are the parents?  Good question.  The mother is reading the ever-liberated and liberating Cosmopolitan, formulating career strategies and making sure her legs look good whilst climbing the corporate ladder and the father is generally, well, absent (or, in many case, unknown). 

I think that`s the point. Ok .. also in Germany a father alone with two kids is not normal today ... but it works fine. Of cause I have to do my job and sometimes it`s hard between preparing stowage of heavy lift cargo on vessels (that`s basicly what I`m doing as engineer), housekeeping, cooking .... to find enough time for kids and ... last but not least, for myselfe, BUT it was my decition to have kids and it`s my responsibility to do all efforts to ensure that these kids can grow up and to find their way. Think it`s true that a lot of parents do not do their job ... but it`s not the point to blame society or whatever ... it`s up to everybody to change it, simply in his own life.  And really nobody can tell me, that due job or whatever it could not be possible to take his/her responsebility for the kids.


Originally posted by Servetus


It is how to maintain the stability of the family in circumstances such as the one I describe above that is, to my mind, a large part of the issue.

 Well, of cause, but as said, the only way is to live it. Circumstances might be worst, but even under worst circumstances different ways are possible. I.e. friends of my kids are nearly daily here at our home. I know that some of them have parents who do not look after their kids, TV is on the whole day, or I-pod .... whatever. I don`t care. When they are here, it`s ok, of cause sometimes they are playing with the st**id playstation, but most of the time they are playing soccer or they are sailing with my son`s boat (of cause not now...) or repairing their bicycles, whatever ... Even the worst kids are fine, when they are here, but they need to have possibilities i.e. tools for building something, repairing or whatever and the freedom to make failures. And even the worst kids, they are accepting limits here. Maybe I look sometimes angry   but normaly I do not have to forbid anything.

Originally posted by Servetus


Are you suggesting that I simply learn to embrace the deliberate blasphemies of Cannibal Corpse and the hate messages of Brutal Attack?  Should one simply be passively content to let the culture go swirling off and down the toilet as it will?  Be assured that I do know what prohibitions are: I was sent to a strict, boarding, parochial school when I was a boy, and I still managed to follow the pied pipers of (drug) culture out into the vast meadows and  wastelands and there I remained for decades.

hm ... what I`m doing is, that I take my kids with me to concerts of music I love. I.e. Jethro Tull or, last year a Doors festival (of cause not the original ones ... would be impossible). On the other hand, if I want to listen to my music, I normaly have to look into the rooms of my kids ...

 And, one of my hobby is motorbiking, so of cause my son is sitting aft of me while my daughter now is driving her own motorbike and of cause we`re going to motorbike parties  together. Btw. I show my daughter how to maintain the bike ... but it`s her job to do it at her bike.

 I try to show them as many possibilities as possible and they met „Rocker“, freaks, seamen, Anarchists, „high society“ ... „normal“ people ... of cause we discussed about drugs, sex and prevention etc ... main point is, if you know the „enemy“ you can deal with it, if you just ignore ... *****will happen.     

Originally posted by Servetus


I don’t deny that my attitude toward anything is of paramount importance, but, again, if I am hearing you correctly, are you suggesting that my attitude vis-à-vis what I consider to be the at times deliberate corruption of American youth by the marketeers and main stream media should be one of acquiescence, toleration and acceptance?

Serv

That`s a good point, but the problem is not to tolerate or to accept the way of life-style given by society. The only problem is to find your own way and to follow your way. I`m pretty sure that the problems in the States are similar to Germany and I do not see any movement in the moment to change the society to a better way with more freedom and personel responsibility. In fact, I feel, that we`re just going the other way  with more stringency, more social controll systems ... but, this systems will fail and they do it just right now.

 Maybe I`m an old, long-haired hippie ;-) ...  imagine all the people, living for today ;-)

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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 11:55am

Wafi,

Please don’t take me too seriously because sometimes, as I said, I dramatize just to make a point and I don’t really even have a twelve-year-old daughter (I just sometimes wish I did).

You wrote:
I think that`s the point ...

I think that is only part of the point.  The fact remains that, even in those homes where the parents are fully present and are focusing upon their children and their well being, Children A, B, and C are still quite often engaged in those activities.

Quote:
BUT it was my decition to have kids and it`s my responsibility to do all efforts to ensure that these kids can grow up and to find their way.

Exactly.

Quote:
Think it`s true that a lot of parents do not do their job ... but it`s not the point to blame society or whatever ...

I am not suggesting that society, as a whole, be blamed.  But if in this particular instance I shouldn’t point to the promoters of the pornographic radio program I referred to as being complicit in the corruption of American youth (their primary target audience), to whom should I point?  Except for the fact that I forced myself to suffer through it (by listening), I had absolutely nothing to do with it.        

Quote:
it`s up to everybody to change it, simply in his own life.

I agree.

I wrote:
... It is how to maintain the stability of the family in circumstances such as the one I describe above that is, to my mind, a large part of the issue.

You wrote:
Well, of cause, but as said, the only way is to live it. Circumstances might be worst, but even under worst circumstances different ways are possible. I.e. friends of my kids are nearly daily here at our home. I know that some of them have parents who do not look after their kids, TV is on the whole day, or I-pod .... whatever. I don`t care ...

Well, you just might start caring if and when one of those I-pod children starts carving an inverted pentagram into his forehead (not meaning to sound flippant here).

Quote:
… but normaly I do not have to forbid anything.

Allow me to clarify: is it acceptable to you that, during rush-hour traffic, on the public airways, so-called shock jocks (radio hosts) be allowed to “entertain” children by broadcasting dramatizations of extreme (sado/masochistic) fetishism (involving feces)?   

Quote:
hm ... what I`m doing is, that I take my kids with me to concerts of music I love. I.e. Jethro Tull or, last year a Doors festival (of cause not the original ones ... would be impossible). On the other hand, if I want to listen to my music, I normaly have to look into the rooms of my kids ...

Wafi, you’re great and immensely likeable.  One of the tracks to this thread, like Apocalypse Now, shall be The Door’s, The End.  Listen to that along with Cannibal Corpse and you’ll start to get my vibe (vibration).   

Quote:
… my main point is, if you know the „enemy“ you can deal with it, if you just ignore ... {Stuff} will happen.

On this point, we both quite agree. 

I wrote:
… are you suggesting that my attitude vis-à-vis what I consider to be the at times deliberate corruption of American youth by the marketeers and main stream media should be one of acquiescence, toleration and acceptance?

You wrote:
That`s a good point, but the problem is not to tolerate or to accept the way of life-style given by society.  The only problem is to find your own way to to follow your way ...

So, if I correctly understand, you are suggesting that one should just find and follow one’s way and inure oneself to the fact that well-paid pornographers are polluting the public airways (and thus my at least theoretical childrens' minds) with filth? 

You wrote:
I`m pretty sure that the problems in the States are similar to Germany and I do not see any movement in the moment to change the society to a better way with more freedom and personel responsibility. In fact, I feel, that we`re just going the other way  with more stringency, more social controll systems ...

I did say that it’s too bad that “pushing the envelope” for free speech is so often misconstrued as the exclusive rights of pornographers to peddle their wares to whomsoever they will.  There are times when, it seems to me, the notorious “decadence” of pre-War Berlin seem to pale in comparison to that found here.  I hope the Fascists, for instance, don’t make a come back, even though those on the far Right (political wing) of America are the ones who often raise the most noise against the stuff I mention.  

Quote:
Maybe I`m an old, long-haired hippie ;-) ...  imagine all the people, living for today ;-)

I think, like many hippies before they abandoned their principles for their careers and their teepees for townhouses, you’re just a bit idealistic, or optimistic.  But that’s ok with me.

Best regards,

Serv



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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 1:07pm

Originally posted by Servetus


Wafi,

Please don’t take me too seriously because sometimes, as I said, I dramatize just to make a point and I don’t really even have a twelve-year-old daughter (I just sometimes wish I did).

You see, that`s maybe the difference .. I normaly take everybody seriouse. That`s the reason I do not have seriouse problems with the kids

Originally posted by Servetus


I am not suggesting that society, as a whole, be blamed.  But if in this particular instance I shouldn’t point to the promoters of the pornographic radio program I referred to as being complicit in the corruption of American youth (their primary target audience), to whom should I point?  Except for the fact that I forced myself to suffer through it (by listening), I had absolutely nothing to do with it.        

I don`t agree. It`s up to you to listen .. and it`s up to the kids to listen. But I think in general, as far as I can read in newspaper, but also what I learned during several stays in the US, there might be a society problem with sexuality at all in the US. I.e. Clinton and Monica ... hm.. in Europe this story might be in some newspapers a couple of days, but impeachment ???? Why?  A man and a woman , that`s the story,  end of the story. So what? Nobody would care about it, their problem. Both were old enough to decide what they want to do. On the other hand, thinking of Columbine, the moral in regards of rifles are totaly different. For us, as European, it is not normal to have a rifle or pistol, 


Originally posted by Servetus


Well, you just might start caring if and when one of those I-pod children starts carving an inverted pentagram into his forehead (not meaning to sound flippant here).

I think I understand ... but, as far as I can see, this young people have no ideals and are searching for a way, for a comunity ... to feel not alone. Maybe they find a religion or gothics or a fascistic group ... but reason is, not to be alone and to find a meaning for their life. I know ... a lot of readers will not agree with religion in same sentence than fasistic ... but please appologise, I think the reason for each group is not to feel alone and may be people find in a religion a feeling good for them. But ... we also have to realize that this group can bring violance to others, like i.e. OBL.

Originally posted by Servetus


Allow me to clarify: is it acceptable to you that, during rush-hour traffic, on the public airways, so-called shock jocks (radio hosts) be allowed to “entertain” children by broadcasting dramatizations of extreme (sado/masochistic) fetishism (involving feces)? 

Well, I don`t like it either, but I`m able to switch off. There might be an audience otherwise this would be stopped.  Again it`s a question of how people are living together. Might be not the best way. Change it!

Originally posted by Servetus


So, if I correctly understand, you are suggesting that one should just find and follow one’s way and inure oneself to the fact that well-paid pornographers are polluting the public airways (and thus my at least theoretical childrens' minds) with filth? 

 No, not inure. Switch off. I.e. .... I`m the terriblest customer of local hardware store, because I normaly switch off the TV`s telling what I have to buy ... One time the manager was a little bit angry .. I told him, hey guy two possibilities, I buy my stuff here without the bloody TV`s or I buy my stuff in an other store ... since that time he accepted ... not really, because they made some covers on the switch off buttom, I don`t care, so I plug off the electricity ;-)

Originally posted by Servetus


I did say that it’s too bad that “pushing the envelope” for free speech is so often misconstrued as the exclusive rights of pornographers to peddle their wares to whomsoever they will.  There are times when, it seems to me, the notorious “decadence” of pre-War Berlin seem to pale in comparison to that found here.  I hope the Fascists, for instance, don’t make a come back, even though those on the far Right (political wing) of America are the ones who often raise the most noise against the stuff I mention.  

 agree, as I wrote in an other thread here ... freddom of speech is not equal to freedom of lies.

Originally posted by Servetus


I think, like many hippies before they abandoned their principles for their careers and their teepees for townhouses, you’re just a bit idealistic, or optimistic.  But that’s ok with me.

Best regards,

Serv

 Well, I`m a relalist, so I`m trying to do the impossible.

 But you`re right, a lot of old „hippies“ ... they are only dreaming about an other life, but doing nothing to realize it.

 

best regards

Peter



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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 3:38pm

Peter (Wafi),

I said that about my, or "one's," twelve-year-old daughter so that I could more effectively make my Snoop Dog comment.  Poetic license.

I wrote:
I am not suggesting that society, as a whole, be blamed.  But if in this particular instance I shouldn’t point to the promoters of the pornographic radio program I referred to as being complicit in the corruption of American youth (their primary target audience), to whom should I point?  Except for the fact that I forced myself to suffer through it (by listening), I had absolutely nothing to do with it.
        

You responded:
I don`t agree. It`s up to you to listen .. and it`s up to the kids to listen.

And we should all wallow in pornographic puke together?

Quote (you):
But I think in general, as far as I can read in newspaper, but also what I learned during several stays in the US, there might be a society problem with sexuality at all in the US.

There is a problem with sexuality in the US!  Among other things, pornographers are polluting our public airwaves.

Quote:
I.e. Clinton and Monica ... hm.. in Europe this story might be in some newspapers a couple of days, but impeachment ???? Why?  A man and a woman , that`s the story,  end of the story. So what? Nobody would care about it, their problem.

Agreed.

Quote:
… On the other hand, thinking of Columbine, the moral in regards of rifles are totaly different. For us, as European, it is not normal to have a rifle or pistol …

Look behind the rifles at Columbine and you might find Cannibal Corpse or one of its spawn.  And, evidently, at least in Italy, the trend is catching on:

“Many of the new wave of Satanists in Italy indulge in a potentially lethal blend of black magic, hard drugs, sex and heavy metal music. One recent murder case that dominated the headlines was the so-called "Beasts of Satan" trial of a group who bludgeoned two of their members before burying them alive in woods near Milan …”

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01 /07/wdevil07.xml

I wrote:
Well, you just might start caring if and when one of those I-pod children starts carving an inverted pentagram into his forehead (not meaning to sound flippant here).

You responded:
I think I understand ... but, as far as I can see, this young people have no ideals and are searching for a way, for a comunity ... to feel not alone.

In Italy, they’re calling upon the services of the exorcists.

Quote (you):
I know ... a lot of readers will not agree with religion in same sentence than fasistic ... but please appologise, I think the reason for each group is not to feel alone and may be people find in a religion a feeling good for them. But ... we also have to realize that this group can bring violance to others, like i.e. OBL.

I don’t have a problem with your equating some forms of religion with certain other forms of fascism, etc.  I am not arguing my case from a religious standpoint, necessarily.

I wrote:
Allow me to clarify: is it acceptable to you that, during rush-hour traffic, on the public airways, so-called shock jocks (radio hosts) be allowed to “entertain” children by broadcasting dramatizations of extreme (sado/masochistic) fetishism (involving feces)?

You responded:
Well, I don`t like it either, but I`m able to switch off.

Thank you for not liking it either.   

Quote (you):
There might be an audience otherwise this would be stopped.

Of course there is an audience.  Have you ever known a twelve-year-old child who is not interested in sex and sexuality, especially when it is mixed with extreme violence and taboo?  Howard Stern himself has apparently decided to circumvent the few restrictions of the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) by finding a new sponsor in Sirius (the Dog Star) Satellite Radio, Inc., but his many aspiring clones remain behind, on the public airwaves, giving it their so called best.

I wrote:
So, if I correctly understand, you are suggesting that one should just find and follow one’s way and inure oneself to the fact that well-paid pornographers are polluting the public airways (and thus my at least theoretical childrens' minds) with filth?
 

You responded:
 No, not inure. Switch off.

I’ve already dealt with, or answered this suggestion to “switch off” in my response to Ops above.  My position has not considerably changed since that post. I wish I could just switch off what my young nephew is listening to. 

Quote (you):
I.e. .... I`m the terriblest customer of local hardware store, because I normaly switch off the TV`s telling what I have to buy ... One time the manager was a little bit angry .. I told him, hey guy two possibilities, I buy my stuff here without the bloody TV`s or I buy my stuff in an other store ... since that time he accepted ... not really, because they made some covers on the switch off buttom, I don`t care, so I plug off the electricity ;-)

Carry on, mate.  The people have the power (and all that).

Quote:
agree, as I wrote in an other thread here ... freddom of speech is not equal to freedom of lies.

Here in Oceania, as Orwell said, or at least might have said, children get fed pornography and we get freedom of lies and disinfotainment (disinformation mixed with entertainment) and, of course: Truth Equals Treason. 

I enjoy talking to you.

Best regards,

Serv



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Quote wafi Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 11:48pm

Hi Serv,

if I would not enjoy to discuss with you, I would not do it

I think you are mixing up problems without looking to the fundamental problem in the background. When you are talking about pronographic, sex and drugs, no rock`n roll  but satanism than this is of cause the result of a missleaded education. To discuss this matter, I have a small problem to do that on an islamic webside, because the background of my critic is also touching maybe islamic feelings. So please appologize, I do not want to argue against islam, I only want to show my point of view.

 Ok, let`s start. One of human fundaments is sexuality, otherwise I`m sure, this board would not exist. Sexual attitudes were always based in the past on the social structures of the society. Wield power on sexuality was a factor of power in all structures.

 Today`s situation in Europe and the US is, that the social structures are more or less destroyed. Family, if existing, is only a very small community, due to job etc ... family structures with grandpa or grandma ... etc, is more or less not existing any more. We are living in an individualistic world. This fact is creating several problems. Social control is going to zero, an individualistic world ask for individual responsibility, same time the rulers realize that they are loosing their power and instead of power to rulers, companies, who do not care about social life, got the power. This effect creates a countermovement of people, willing to have social control. One point this countermovement realized is the sexual power and i.e. virginity is one point of propaganda of this countermovement. This movement based on more or less dogmatic christians (but also islamists) are trying to state sexuality as evil. Results as a 4 year old kid, touching  a nursery teacher is not allowed to go in the kindergarden any more due sexual harassment or a teacher, fired out of his job, due to the fact that a part of a men`s body was drawn to the table during sex education ... showing a deep disability to realize that sexuality is just nature. Of course such countermovement creates also a countermovement ... just in the opposite way. Due to morbid fundamentalist moral on the one side, sexuality with same morbid character is used by different groups, like your Satanists, but I would also say like in many movies and of course in the pornographic industry. Both sides are growing and btw. I`m getting app. 80 e-mails per day, stating to buy viagra or enlarge it ... whatever ... I`m not amoused of this, you can believe.

 What to do? I do not really know. For myselfe and my kids I decided to go the individual way with own responsibility and own decitions. Sexuality is normal in our family, that means we are discussing whatever one is interesting to discuss. I`m pretty sure that my kids have their own secrets, so what, if they want to discuss, they are welcome. But to go the individual way with own responsibility is, I think a hard way to go.

 The easier way, to have social limits, propaganded by some Christians or by the Islam, means in the end to turn back the wheel of history. Life in the US or in Europe as known in the moment could not exist any longer, because to turn back, means to install again family structures as we had, that means i.e. no change of living place due another job etc. All what`s necessary to live in this kind of industrial society would have to be changed.

 The problem today is, that our way of industrial society have to find answers to social questions. I.e. my parants are living 600km from my hometown. They are now 73 years old. In the moment everything is fine, but I really have no idea to handle my life if one of them would be seriousely sick. 

Btw. I think this guys called Taliban or OBL ... they realized very well the western problem and their answer was a more fundamentalistic way of their religion. And ... it`s like a joke ... in principle their ideas are very close to ideas of GWB.  

 

best regards

Peter

 

Edit: I changed some wordings today.



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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2007 at 4:50pm

Hi Peter,

 

Let us take a momentary break and depersonalize the discussion somewhat.  I shall, at this point, interject a portion of a book from one of the USA’s more outspoken and controversial Constitutional lawyers (on the political far Right), Robert H. Bork.  Please understand that I am not quoting him because I invariably agree with him, but so that you and others might enjoy hearing at least a sound byte or two of the public debate as it rages, or, I should more accurately say, swirls here in the States.  I will skip about, a bit, rather like playing a random selection on an I-pod.

 

Dr. Bork writes, in a chapter entitled “The Case for Censorship:”

 

“… The alternative to censorship, legal and moral, will be a brutalized and chaotic culture, with all that that entails for our society, economy, politics, and physical safety …”

 

“… in a republican form of government where the people rule, it is crucial that the character of the citizenry not be debased …”

 

“We tend to think of virtue as a personal matter, each of us to choose which virtues to practice or not practice – the privatization of morality, or, if you will the “pursuit of happiness,” as each of us defines happiness.  But only a public morality, in which trust, truth-telling, and self-control are prominent features, can long sustain a decent social order and hence a stable and just democratic order.  If the social order continues to unravel, we may respond with a more authoritarian [totalitarian?] government that is capable of providing at least personal safety.”

 

“The second bit of advice [often given by others] –“If it offends you, don’t buy it” –is both lulling and destructive.  Whether you buy it or not, you will be greatly affected by those who do.  The aesthetic and moral environment in which you and your family live will be coarsened and degraded.”

 

“… the founders of liberalism [e.g,, Rousseau, Voltaire, Hume, Madison, et. al.] were wrong.  Unconstrained human nature will seek degeneracy often enough to create a disorderly, hedonistic, and dangerous society.  Modern liberalism and [American] popular culture are creating that society.”

 

Serv

 

Ref:

Bork, Robert H., Slouching Towards Gomorrah, Modern Liberalism and American Decline, HarperCollins Publishers, Inc., New York, NY, 1996, ISBN 0-06-039163-4, pp. 140-153
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