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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Islam and Humanism Post Reply Post New Topic
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wibisono
 
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Quote wibisono Replybullet Topic: Islam and Humanism
    Posted: 02 May 2005 at 9:30pm

Dear All muslim brothers.

I'm Wibi from Indonesia. I have a friend come from North America who claimed humanism as his religion. That is not disturbing me, what is disturbing me is his opinion about Islam. In my perception he has a wrong conception about Islam. I try to make it straight but I found dificulties in explaining Islam due to my limited knowledge.

Here I provide you with complete dialog beetwen Me and My Friend.

------------------------------------------------------

Me says:
don't you know thursday is holiday

My Friend says:
This country has WAY too many holidays.

Me says:
its ascension day

Me says:
its internaitional holiday I think

My Friend says:
Ascension of who? Ach, doesn't matter... Indonesia has too many holidays. So many it's almost unbelievable.

Me says:
but its ok for me, please come to my place thursday

My Friend says:
Alright.

Me says:
Ascension of Jesus Crist I think

My Friend says:
In may? I don't think so.

Me says:
thats what my calendar said

My Friend says:
Yeah for Jesus!

Me says:
I'm not sure about that, I thought that you know better

My Friend says:
Not me man...

Me says:
You and XXX are not scehduled to chruch on that day?

My Friend says:
XXX is moslem and I don't believe Jesus Christ ever even existed.

Me says:
XXX is moslem ? get real... that surprised me

Me says:
most chiness in indo is Catholic

My Friend says:
Yes, he converted to islam when he married his second wife.

Me says:
so you don't celebrate christmas

My Friend says:
It's just a day to give presents to kids.

Me says:
I see

My Friend says:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

My Friend says:
But, if people want to believe in Jesus, that's fine by me.

Me says:
I believe in Jesus, thats what holy quran said

Me says:
that moslem must believe in 25 of human kind prophet

Me says:
including , Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah Jesus and the last Mohammed

My Friend says:
I'm tolerant of any belief system, islam as well... but the problem with the quran is that if Jesus didn't actually exist, then it messes the quran up to.

My Friend says:
Religion is a tricky thing.

My Friend says:
Read that page anyway, it's quite interesting.

Me says:
Religion has duty to explain what is not reachable by human brain

My Friend says:
but it's the human brain here at work proving through use of logic and the lack of any evidence that Jesus didn't exist.

My Friend says:
The arguments in the article are hard to debate... but who really knows. If it's all the same, I'll just be a nice guy to people and go my own path.

Me says:
You know Neils Bohr? tha man who explore the existance of atom and electron, he began to believe that atom is not a thing atom is something priritual when he can't locate the position of the eletcron when hew found the the velocity, but he can't measuire the velcity when he found the locotion of the electron

Me says:
yeah... thats what religion told to human

Me says:
to be a good person

My Friend says:
That was back then, when he couldn't explain that... Quantum physics explains that now.

Me says:
the quantum physics still can't reveal that I gues

Me says:
we are physicians....

Me says:
I mean we are NOT physicians

My Friend says:
Huh? A physician is a medical doctor, you must mean physicist. I know plenty about quantum mechanics.

My Friend says:
Had to take it all in university.

My Friend says:
Well, one required coarse anyway.

Me says:
sorry... what I mean is physicist

My Friend says:
I need to get something to eat, talk to you soon.

Me says:
ok

And then I we take break for a while
I drop him an email below:
-----------------
Dear My Friend,

I have read the article, its quite interesting.
They use so many theory and methodology to proove that Jesus never exist.
I have my conclusion which is that I need no evidence to believe.

If you reli on physical evidence only to prove that Jesus ever exist.
I'm affraid you will never get it, because human brain is limited.
Let say some people has a physical evidence that Jesus is trully exist.
Would you believe in Jesus then?
If so, then how you gonna prove that there is Heaven and there is Hell up there waiting for us.
It can't be proven by human brain.

What about Islam, there is an evidence that Mohammed is trully exist in the past.
There is a grave of him.
What makes people like you don't believe in Islam.
That is an evidence that to believe is need no envidence.

A religion has a holly book.
Greek myth does not has it, it was only a story.
How can bible contain most content of taurat (Jews holly book).
And how can quran contain most content of bible.
Mohammed never learn to bible.
And Jesus never learn to taurat.
But the each holly book inherited from its previous.

I think its too narrow if we believe based on physicall evidence only, don't you  agree?
But... we are not theologist right?
To me religion is a practice not theory.
I need more age to understand the philosophy of religion, not in this age.

You are great with your own path I think, keep it that way.
Many people with religion path doesn't great.
I'm trying to be the great one under religion path.

Its nice to discus something diferrent sometime ;-)

Regards

Wibi
-----------------

My Friend says:
got your email... I think you missed the point... they're not trying to "prove" anything in that article, they are simply demonstrating that the "proof" used by those that believe in Jesus has no basis in any documented history.

My Friend says:
In other words, the only evidence of Jesus is hearsay, and that kind of evidence is not acceptable, even in today's courts.

Me says:
however the esence is to denial the existence of Jesus

My Friend says:
When there is no proof that he actually existed, and when his so called apostle paul makes no mention of him, or his deeds in his 13 epistles, I would have to come to the same conclusion... "Jesus" was a creation of man.

My Friend says:
Then he was deified.

My Friend says:
A deified myth.

Me says:
how do you explain the corelation beetwen taurat, bible and quran?

My Friend says:
What correlation?

Me says:
they have barelly similar content

My Friend says:
What do you mean barely similar?

Me says:
all of them mentioned about there only one god, judgement day, heaven, hell

My Friend says:
You can find the exact same type of stories in almost ALL religious texts, not just those that follow the jewish/christian/moslem god.

Me says:
I doubt that

My Friend says:
Alright...

My Friend says:
Let me show you then.

Me says:
please

My Friend says:
http://www.godchecker.com/

My Friend says:
Start there and learn all about other gods throughout human history. You'll find plenty of interesting information.

Me says:
Let me read it first, I need a while

My Friend says:
Please note though that while the information is accurate, the author is an atheist and is not tolerant of people who believe strongly in a god.

My Friend says:
More than 2000 gods.

My Friend says:
But what you will learn in studying those gods, especially those that are older than the Jewish/Chritian/Moslem God, is that there are many similarities between the stories you know from your holy books in the mythology of much older religion.

Me says:
most of them are pantheism religion

Me says:
the big three are not pantehiesm

My Friend says:
Just try to remember that from a human historical perspective... allah/god, didn't exist, people believed in many other gods instead.

My Friend says:
I'm talking way, way, back...

My Friend says:
You may not find what I'm talking about in there, but if you take a look at some of the religions it talks about, especially the african and chinese ancient religions, perhaps on wikipedia, you'll notice similarities in the stories.

Me says:
they all pantheism, meanwhile Jews, Christian and Islam is monotheism

My Friend says:
Yes, I'm aware of that, but monotheism grew from panatheism.

My Friend says:
Therefore you have to go back to understand the origins of monotheism

My Friend says:
Polytheism, not pantheism is actually the correct term

My Friend says:
for what we're talking about on that site.

Me says:
I know... my perception about "monotheism grew from pantheism" is that pantheism is wrong thats why God released the monotheism. Grew doesn mean that montheism based on pantheism

Me says:
thats why there is no such young pantheism

My Friend says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism

Me says:
all pantheism must be ancient one

Me says:
monotheism must the yonger one

My Friend says:
No, there are plenty of examples of modern pantheism. Hindu is your best one.

My Friend says:
Must be? Why is that? Because the Bible tells us so? That's not enough for me to believe.

Me says:
Hindu is a way ancient

My Friend says:
"There are elements of pantheism in the Liberal Catholic Church, Theosophy, some forms of Buddhism, Taoism, Process theology and Creation Spirituality, along with many varying denominations and individuals within denominations."

Me says:
Hindu is already took exist when Alexander the great invated India in year BC

Me says:
Thats all only branches on pantheism

Me says:
what I'm talking about is the origin of pantheism

My Friend says:
Huh?

Me says:
you can find a variant pantheism also in Islam

Me says:
that was a bias af human thought

My Friend says:
There are far too many religions, and none of them have any basis in rational thought and empiracle evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion I choose not to believe in ANY of them. I'll just be good to others and that's the only rule I need to live by.

Me says:
I respect that

Me says:
but do you believe in god?

My Friend says:
No.

Me says:
have read the Jean Paul Sartre tought

My Friend says:
I believe that I'm no more special than a monkey or a butterfly... I'm made of the same molecules, and when I'm dead and buried, those molecules will break down naturally and return to the earth to be used in the formation of some other molecules which may or may not become another living entity.

My Friend says:
I believe that religion was invented by man to explain things that couldn't be explained, and it's only in the last few hundred years, and really in only the last 100 that we've come to realize that there are better answers out there for how things work and why things are... and more questions.

Me says:
You mean science

My Friend says:
The fact that there are so many gods, usually for separate groups of people, different races, etc, throughout different periods of time is proof enough to me that religion is a man made construction.

My Friend says:
Religion is nothing more than an ancient science created by man to explain things that couldn't be explained until we matured enough as a species to develop impartial and hypothetical reasoning.

My Friend says:
That's my belief, anyway... Doesn't mean I'm right, and it doesn't mean you're wrong. You believe that Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his last prophet... I believe in not believing in something unless it can be proven through scientific trial to be true.

Me says:
 Agreed

My Friend says:
I think organized monotheistic religions are the worst thing to happen to the human race actually... They've done nothing but divide us all.

My Friend says:
From a scientific perspective, we truly are all brothers... but almost entirely because of religious faith and beliefs, we have been torn apart from one another.

Me says:
So where is your core value come from?

Me says:
science

Me says:
?

My Friend says:
No, my core is within me.

My Friend says:
I believe in me.

Me says:
but you don't invented by your self right, you must inherited from other people at least your parent

My Friend says:
Yes, just like any other form of life on this planet.

Me says:
you are a nice person, where did you got those value?

Me says:
don't you wonder where those people got it

Me says:
you are inherited religion value, but you don't realized it

My Friend says:
I get it from being smart enough to recognize certain things, from my own history and exposure to several different cultures at a young age.

Me says:
is your parrent born atheis?

Me says:
or is youyr great parent born atheis?

My Friend says:
My mother is a catholic (and a hypocrite), My father was an agnostic.

Me says:
at least theis carier of a good value

Me says:
and you take it

Me says:
so the good value is come from religion

Me says:
the value such as don't tell a lie, be honest, don't do bad etc

My Friend says:
I fail to see the connection... Who I am today is based very little on my parents.

My Friend says:
Those "rules of being good" far outdate anything you've read in the bible or the quran

My Friend says:
It's basic human nature.

Me says:
wrong

My Friend says:
Physiological.

My Friend says:
Wrong?

Me says:
basic human nature is bad, even very bad

My Friend says:
I disagree.

Me says:
can you imagine if peole may live whitout law

Me says:
the strong one will beat on the weak one

Me says:
so basically human nature is bad

My Friend says:
Such is nature...

Me says:
thats why human kind need religion

My Friend says:
We're the only species on the planet that defies nature at every turn.

Me says:
the basic law of all

My Friend says:
I am a humanist.

My Friend says:
That's my "religion"

My Friend says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

My Friend says:
Read all about it.

My Friend says:
More exactly, I am a modern humanist.

My Friend says:
I believe in reason, logic, scientific method, democracy and human compassion.

Me says:
all those elements are included in religion I believe

Me says:
my religion I mean

My Friend says:
Sure there will be similarities, but your religion also contains elements that I find illogical, and without reason, and your religion can't "change" when we discover new things. Mine can.

Me says:
such as?

My Friend says:
Your religion is based on what a 14th century thought should be "the way" and for a long time, his rules worked pretty good... They are starting to fall apart now, just as other old religions are. My "religion", and I don't even like calling it that, changes as required, but is always based on making human existance the best it can be... fair, balanced, in order and within reason.

My Friend says:
Make that a guy in the 7th century,

My Friend says:
not the 14th

My Friend says:
If you really want to get technical, to the most radical moslems, mohammed only cements the ideals of abramistic religion.

Me says:
in my perspective my religion is still relevant until today

My Friend says:
believe what you want to believe. I have the luxury of being able to say that  you're not wrong to believe in whatever you want, but as a true moslem, you don't have that luxury.

My Friend says:
I'm an infidel, and according to your religion, considered a lower life form.

Me says:
if you refer to the radical arabic people they are not representing true face of islam

My Friend says:
Yes, but what is the "true" face of islam? Who defines it?

Me says:
what do you mean infidel?

My Friend says:
Not part of the "group".

Me says:
what group?

My Friend says:
those who believe in the islamic faith.

Me says:
who said that the unbelivers is considered as lower life form

Me says:
I reject that

Me says:
thats was wrong perception

My Friend says:
Well, let's look it up.

Me says:
I was born in Bali and and people there are all considerd as brothers

My Friend says:
 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

My Friend says:
Look it up.

Me says:
The Hindu and the Islam people get along together

My Friend says:
 When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

My Friend says:
 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

My Friend says:
 FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

My Friend says:
 O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

My Friend says:
 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

My Friend says:
 I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believ

My Friend says:
Do I need to find more?

Me says:
where did you find all that, its look strange.

My Friend says:
The chapter and quran verse are at the end of each paste.

Me says:
where did you did find such silly translation like that

Me says:
give it to me the URL and I will consult it to the ulama

My Friend says:
Who's the ulama?

Me says:
You know I'm not very clever in reading quran

My Friend says:
your cleric.

Me says:
Ulama is some kind of islamic intelectual (thinker)

My Friend says:
Ahhh... Well, I have emailed you all the quotes that I found and you can ask your ulama if that's what the passages really mean.

Me says:
I need to confirm wheter the message in that transaltion is accurate or not

My Friend says:
Don't you have an Indonesian version that you can look at?

My Friend says:
Just look up the chapter and verse

Me says:
chapter and verse, like (9:123)?

Me says:
ok, I see

My Friend says:
yes

My Friend says:
If I am wrong, please educate me.

Me says:
thank you for the discussion, it is not often for to discuss like this

My Friend says:
I do it all the time.

Me says:
BTW how is the burn

My Friend says:
I emailed you the quotes.

My Friend says:
I've been too busy talking to you to get it done.

Me says:
thanks again

Me says:
hehehe... please don't

My Friend says:
Please don't what?

Me says:
don't too busy on me

My Friend says:
That's ok.

My Friend says:
No problem

My Friend says:
This is the site where the quotes can be read in english, there are three separate translations for each verse.

My Friend says:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

My Friend says:
The entire quran is there.

Me says:
ok

Me says:
I got to off...

My Friend says:
Ok, goodnight

Me says:
see you tomorrow

My Friend says:
bye

Me says:
bye

My Friend says:
be good.
------------------------------

Well... its quite long right

don't be bored to read it :-)

I'm computer programer and I'm very newbie in this kind of discussion.  So if you find something unproper with my understanding please feelfree to correct it as well.

Please some one help us.

Best Regards

Wibisono S
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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2005 at 10:39pm

Wibisono,

Even if nothing else is true or untrue or whatever...it's obviously true that you have a VERY good memory!  

Kim...

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wibisono
 
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Quote wibisono Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2005 at 11:28pm

Hello Kim,

Why is that?

The dialog is in MSN chat program.
I saved all my convesation with everybody on chat.

Regards

 

Wibisono S
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