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covered
 
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Quote covered Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2007 at 11:00am
I can see I am gonna have to start a thread on the whole topic of why it was needed for Jesus to pay for our sins.  Which could take me some time.  It's whole lotta writin'.  So I think right now I will get dinner goin' and when I get a minute today, I will start a thread on orignal sin.  Also the mercy of God and how even in the OT how God worked things.
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Quote covered Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2007 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Arab

The original sin is even rejected in the OT.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (the progeny of Adam) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 18:20-21

(emphasis is mine)

This is Islam idea of salvation, you be good =) even a smile is considered charity in Islam.

I had hoped to get a chance to post a thread on "original sin" today.  But to no avail.  So I will simply address this at the moment.

The scripture you quoted when taken out of context, as you have, comes of meaning what you "think" it means.  But if you were to read the whole chapter, you would find that God is lecturing Israel on their rebellious ways and the fact that they like so many people today blame their upbringing and their forefathers for their own sins.  God is letting them know there, that they are each responsible for their own actions and they need to own up to it, and pointing the finger at the previous generations.  It's not about original sin, or the lack thereof, but about how they suffer the consequences of their own sins.  They were going through a terrible time at that point and blame their forefathers for it.



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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:12am

You are right, covered. The Jews were so rebellious and sinned so much against God that in their Holy Books, God spoke to them in their own arrogant style of language, which they could comprehend. 

Israel was called a whore and the kingdom was compared with a whoredom.



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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 7:57am
Originally posted by covered

Originally posted by Arab

The original sin is even rejected in the OT.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (the progeny of Adam) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 18:20-21

(emphasis is mine)

This is Islam idea of salvation, you be good =) even a smile is considered charity in Islam.

I had hoped to get a chance to post a thread on "original sin" today.  But to no avail.  So I will simply address this at the moment.

The scripture you quoted when taken out of context, as you have, comes of meaning what you "think" it means.  But if you were to read the whole chapter, you would find that God is lecturing Israel on their rebellious ways and the fact that they like so many people today blame their upbringing and their forefathers for their own sins. 

This is not quite correct. The generation asking the question,

" The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
       " 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
       and the children's teeth are set on edge'? Ezekiel 18:1-2

This was a question regarding their "fathers'" sins that had lead to captivity, and they wanted to know if they would continue paying for their "fathers' sins". This is the context. And Ezekiel quotes Jeremiah,

29 "In those days people will no longer say,
       'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
       and the children's teeth are set on edge.'

 30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.

Jeremiah 31:29-30

The point is that if the fathers ate sour grapes, then do the children's teeth pay for it?

The answer is no, and no one but the person who sins will pay for the sin. The people asking the question are not blaiming their problems on their fathers, they are asking if they will be blamed for what their fathers have done. The entire passage of Ezekiel 18 brings this point across. That is the context. Not being blamed for someones sin.

 

 God is letting them know there, that they are each responsible for their own actions and they need to own up to it, and pointing the finger at the previous generations.  It's not about original sin, or the lack thereof, but about how they suffer the consequences of their own sins.  They were going through a terrible time at that point and blame their forefathers for it.

Actually, it is about original sin. Original sin, according to church doctrine, is a state that we live in such that the sin of Adam is placed on his children. So if Adam ate sour grapes, do his children's teeth pay for it?

Ezekiel 18 says no.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote covered Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:48pm
Your understanding is close, but not quite.  Their father's sins they were praying for was to be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from.  They weren't realizing that it was their own sin's they needed to confess and repent of in order to gain that relief.
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Quote covered Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

You are right, covered. The Jews were so rebellious and sinned so much against God that in their Holy Books, God spoke to them in their own arrogant style of language, which they could comprehend. 

Israel was called a whore and the kingdom was compared with a whoredom.

Thank you for seeing that.  God has been known to rebuke people with their own words, kind of like mocking.  I hesitate to say that, but sometimes it seems to be the only way to get a point across to somebody.  As we do with other's.

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Quote Arab Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 7:24pm
Covered, u consider the original sin to be rational? How can u follow a Bible (no disrespect but I have to know) which has so many errors and contradictions and unscientific facts and most of what has been written in it isnt even known to have been written by whom?
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2007 at 9:04pm

Originally posted by covered

Your understanding is close, but not quite.  Their father's sins they were praying for was to be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from.  They weren't realizing that it was their own sin's they needed to confess and repent of in order to gain that relief.

Their fathers sins they were praying for? To be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from?

Cover, you just made that up. There is nothing in Ezekiel 18 that suggests what you have just tried to say. I am left to gather that as of yesterday, you had never actually read Ezekiel 18. You do understand that his audience was in exhile? You do understand "The Fathers eat sour grapes and their Children's teeth are set on edge"?

This is the entire piece:

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
       " 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
       and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

 3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

 5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
       who does what is just and right.

 6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
       or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
       He does not defile his neighbor's wife
       or lie with a woman during her period.

 7 He does not oppress anyone,
       but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
       He does not commit robbery
       but gives his food to the hungry
       and provides clothing for the naked.

 8 He does not lend at usury
       or take excessive interest. [a]
       He withholds his hand from doing wrong
       and judges fairly between man and man.

 9 He follows my decrees
       and faithfully keeps my laws.
       That man is righteous;
       he will surely live,
       declares the Sovereign LORD.

 10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [b] 11 (though the father has done none of them):
       "He eats at the mountain shrines.
       He defiles his neighbor's wife.

 12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
       He commits robbery.
       He does not return what he took in pledge.
       He looks to the idols.
       He does detestable things.

 13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
      Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

 14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

 15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
       or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
       He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

 16 He does not oppress anyone
       or require a pledge for a loan.
       He does not commit robbery
       but gives his food to the hungry
       and provides clothing for the naked.

 17 He withholds his hand from sin [c]
       and takes no usury or excessive interest.
       He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
      He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

 24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter= 18&version=31

 

Where on earth in this piece can you find the cryptic statement you made, "Their father's sins they were praying for was to be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from.".?????  

You do realize that the audience was the generation from those who had sinned and were exhiled? They were not praying for their parents, they were affraid they would have to continue paying for their parent's sin. Also, you do realize that this is a proof text used in the Jewish faith to show that original sin is not biblical? I am certinaly puzzled as to your interpretation, as I have found nothing in the text to promote it.

Regards

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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