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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 29 December 2006 at 5:30pm

Hanan,

Allow me to comment on several of your posts here politely:

You said:

"What a simple solution … join law enforcement! Why didn’t I think of that? Could have saved myself a lot of verbal abuse and money."

No offense but if you didn't understand my statement (which is meant to say take action) then its obvious that the reason will never find you. Don't literally do what I'm saying but merely saying that you should take action on what you "copy-n-paste."

You said:

"Who are you calling nut-jobs? Allow me to refer you to Daniel’s post. Although we may not be as courageous as he is, or perhaps we just don’t have a chance to publicly march in protest against the US regime’s “wars against terror,” does that mean that we’re sitting “for hours” in front of our computers? What a limited understanding you have, my friend."

First off let me say there are Anti-War Nut jobs just as there are Pro-War nut jobs. The fanatics exist on both sides of the line and what I'm saying is that rather constantly talk about how bad something is, physically do something. Now you ask "how do you know we are not doing anything?" Let me see here.....Predominantly Hanan, most of your post regarding politics are copy and paste in comparison to people like Herjihad who actually had posted links which we could electronically sign in protest of an injustice. Those kinds of things is what I'm talking about. If you want to be involved in the political process and want others to join, do things like that. I find actions like Herjihads as well as Brother Daniels quite effective, more so than copy-n-paste about something we can hardly have dialogue in.

You said:

"What does opposition to unjust military invasions, to constant lies from a regime to its citizens, to killings, tortures, rapes, mistreatment of civilians and soldiers, have to do with hate? Hate is such a waste of time. Seems as if you see things as black OR white - if I don’t LOVE America then I must HATE it. How simple is your understanding of the many components of human emotions."

You're right! I do see SOME things in black and white. Any person with a rational mind would say that they LOVE peace. I mean, at least those that abhore violence so what is the opposite of that? Destruction (as an associate to violence which war is). When I mean hate, I'm not talking about the cold-hearted hatred as if the hatred of an enemy but something you truly loathe to the point where it physically effects your psyche which, causes you to act against it. Now whether you hate america or not is your own personal choice. I just don't care to dwell on the complexities of this administration and what it does out there. It does not effect me although I'm sadden at the constant struggle of Muslims across the planet, but in reality, I'm more concerned about our domestic issues here....

You said:

"Who is picketing? Do you know that there are thousands of Vietnam- Gulf War- Iraq War- and Afghan War Veterans who are VERY active against the current US regime, not to forget all the retired military generals? What is this “getting into law” reference? Is this the only advice you have for us? I don’t see where it got YOU anywhere."

This is funny. You are a true literalist! I'm not talking about the war vets I'm talking about you! the one who is passionate and so strong on her own political views. Since you don't disclose what you do outside the forum, and since most of your topics (from what I've read thus far) are about politics by quoting an article or an individual who just simply shares your views then by default I assume you do nothing but rant about how bad America is. What I'm saying is get involved in the political process not IC members I'm making the reference only to you!

You said:

Well, my friend, I can tell you that, when I speak, it matters to those who hear me. Perhaps you should get OUT of law enforcement and align yourself with like-minded, peace loving, non-violent people?

Who says that I don't align myself with peace loving individuals? Yes perhaps when you do speak it matters to people here or outside here. That is great! Frankly if you are referring to here then that is quite fine. I know where I stand here on this website, if that is what the early portion of your statement was referring.

You said:

 "The history of non-white Americans has nothing to do with what is going on right now. What happened to your ancestors happened to your ancestors, not to you. We are not talking about slavery, Jim Crow, the mass-murders of Native Americans etc., on this thread. And you are responsible for your actions, especially since you admit to knowing about “the strife many people across the world endure because of America.”

See? when people say things that are totally illogical, it is hard to be brutally honest. Well, I cannot assume what ethnic group you associate yourself with, but for those of us people that don't think like the great portion of White America this whole social system was created to favor certain classes of people and race happens to be one of those classes. So whether or not I participated in slavery doesn't mean that the effects of ethnocentrism does not effect the latter generations. A typical "White Protestant" comment would be "you are responsible for your own actions" while true in some cases, it is not true for those who were born in disadvantage positions which ALOT of MINORITIES in this country are especially women comments such as "you are responsible for your own actions" does not suffice as a solution nor a logical comment.

Hanan I've been in these positions and have been blessed by Allah Subhana Wa' Ta'alaa to have come out of that position especially in my case where I'm making $100k a year salary as a rookie (who says I hate my job?). So this is why I make the reference to race in that comment. Do you get it now? Yes injustices happen to everyone in the world. I never simply isolated my wn struggle or the struggles of my own ethnic group I was simply stating an example which you being the literalist you are did not read behind the words.

You said:

"My friend, you are as responsible for what is discussed on this forum as those who you accuse of making it a political rather than an Islamic website. If your sincere wish is to discuss matters of faith, then I want to know why you insist that we all should join law enforcement, write to our congress person, and other secular matters. I suspect that it is the - what you call - America-bashing, that gets you upset, correct? Let me tell you, Israfil, if another country had invaded America without any justification (is there ever justification to invade a sovereign nation?), I would speak out against this other country, and I am convinced that you and I would then stand in TOTAL agreement here on this Islamic website. What do you think?"

Hanan, honestly and sincerely you are very fun to dialogue with.......You are strong and passionate about your views and I admire that. That is an attractive trait about you......But let me clarify something here, I was using Law Enforcement as a Segway for taking action. I'm not saying "Hey guys you should be a cop. You get a cool badge and a gun and you get to bust criminals!" No. I'm saying for those of us who are passionate to where it bothers us physically we should get involved. Take some kind of action. Hanan and I'll be honest, posting on IC is a good thing but it does nothing to the outside world. Perhaps it does, but the kind of action I was referring to was the personal action one takes. Whether its picketing in front of the embassy or writing letters. But if your mentality is "the enemy does not care about my letters or my picketing" then what good is there to complain? Because all you're doing is venting and sharing your political views which not all people share. Yes of course you'll have most Muslims here agree with you because the situation is effecting Muslims overseas but if the situation was a domestic issue, let's say a race riot that broke out in prisons Muslims won't care. If you ask me, since we are humans we are selfish and only care about problems that either concern us directly or our people....Me, I try to get out of that mindset and try to think globally not "what effects me"

About your comment about if there were an invading army in America ( Ah, Pearl Harbor?) would we stand in agreement? Yes definitely. I think we stand in agreement with a lot of things. I think you mistake me as some individual who supports what America does. I don't support the war or wars. I never did. I just don't care for the American bashing which is what you do (not you personally) when you constantly make posts over and over and over. If you create several political post then in my opinion you just want to post readings not discuss the issues. That is spamming not dialogue. With me personally that turns me away from discussion because all I'm doing is seeing your name over and over and over about issue after issue after issue. I want to share ideas not see spamming about how F***** up America is. Oh, I'm not cursing see the censorship?

"The only one constantly venting is YOU. I demand that you finally answer the questions I had posed to you on other threads. It won’t do anymore to post your “opinions” and when challenged you decide not to respond and move on to another thread. I call it “the coward way out.“ Let’s see if you actually have something to say!"

I didn't mean to miss your questioning me on purpose I may have overlooked it maybe or if I'm away for a day or two I forget the post or read the most recent comment. I want a challenge frankly I have yet for an individual to challenge me in an intellectual discussion so if you have questions please either send them to me via PM or create a thread. It's not cowarding it's called being lazy and reading the most recent post......Yes I'm confident about my intelligence but I work hard to get to the position where I am so yes I can be a bit cocky. But the difference between me and some other Muslims is I challenge myself and my ways of thought and perhaps I do challenge myself so much then I start to question my own beliefs. But at the same time Muslims don't do that on this website nor in some sectors in the world especially overseas.

It's so easy to be around people that are like minded and that would agree with you without challenging your beliefs. Seriously, most religious "folk" don't evaluate why they believe the way they do. The average opinion is "well because I have faith" that does not suffice. People need to challenge themselves because it solidifies their religious foundation. No wonder we have religious fanatics (Or Muslim Radicals) because all they have to do is listen to their Imam and they do what they're told. To me that is ignorance not intelligence. Because and no offense to anyone here if an Imam told you to stick a piece of wood up your butt because the prophet did so people would do it! Similarly when people read the Hadith and they are told to cleanse themselves (their posterior area) with pebbles because the prophet did so especially when toilet tissue is accessible to me that is not thinking critically that is doing what you're told!

>>>>NO YOU CAN’T! You come across as a very frustrated individual who’s life isn’t working out very well, and the reason for this failure always seem lies with OTHERS.<<<<

Well, I can! LOL I'm frustrated? Me? Ahhhhh no! Maybe that day when I wrote my post I was frustrated at my superiors but in actuality I'm loving what I do. I'm making a difference inside the jails and outside. For a moment my situation was tough because I had to acclimate to the environment but that is the price you pay for duties to your country. By the way I see you downplayed my job by saying:

That is what you’re getting paid for in the profession you chose, unlike those who’s lives are on the line in ways you refuse to imagine, and who are getting paid only in shrapnel fragments, bomblets (here is THAT cute word again), bullets, the filthy hands and the equally filthy private parts of US soldiers, the daily insults and degradations of fathers and mothers in front of their children, and many other ways. Perhaps you should enlist in the military and REALLY put your life on the line in Iraq or Afghanistan, instead of always talking about how dangerous your job is. Maybe you should switch jobs with one of the thousands of burned-out and war-weary US soldiers and allow him to be a rookie-cop for a while?

Funny that you downplay my job because I'm not a "real" soldier but let me ask you this......When you have a domestic situation such as being robbed or being assaulted who do you call? You can't call the pentagon to save you nor the National Guard. You call us. Your local authorities. So yes globally I may not know what its like to get shot at globally-not even on a domestic front (God Forbid) but I highly doubt you'd disagree with me if you were working with me in my 16 hour days in the jails looking after 10,000+ inmates. Especially when you move out in the streets in gang infested territories. There is more violence now on the street than it is in Iraq! That is why america should focus their 3 billion a day war in America not Iraq. I wouldn't put stock in a destroyed country.

Hanan nice to know that you think my job is "cake" compared to being a soldier. I don't understand how I risk less than the soldier. I can easily be mobbed and killed by people anytime I'm in the jails. I don't see how I'm risking less. But then again, you're the one that sees my life in all areas so you must know me really well. A soldier gets paid just like me. The only difference between me and a soldier is they carry scary firearms and they are bound by a contract.

You said:

Politics is a fickle field because nobody cannot say "they are the victim."

In other words: EVERYBODY can say that they are the victim. Right? Hint: “nobody cannot”

No offense, but do I have to spell it out? What I was meaning by that statement was simply said by you when you said: EVERYBODY can say that they are the victim. Right? Hint: “nobody cannot”

I was saying that in this world ion major civilizations various countries have all done wrong.....Nobody cannot isolate themselves as the sole victim where they have been wronged by everyone. I'm talking about countries not people, but of course in some cases people have wrong others too so they cannot say they are innocent themselves. So basically, in the comment which you missed I said "Nobody cannot say they are the sole victim"

Regardless what we believe politically we are not going to change each other. My concern is that I believe we should take action in what we do. I'm taking action voluntarily and, getting paid for it as a sucsss for my hard work. Others take action in different ways but whatever we do it should produce physical results.Yes of course when you post things on the internet it can make a difference, but what I'm saying is spamming post about how bad America is and how ugly war in Iraq is does not solve the issue. You're just posting stuff and using people who agree with you as references. All I'm saying is if we disagree. Fine! Lets dialogue about our disagreement rather go back and forth like this. I hope you understand me now

 



Edited by Israfil
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Angel
 
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bullet Posted: 30 December 2006 at 5:49am
Originally posted by herjihad

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by herjihad

I thank Sasha endlessly for his effort to inform and educate us to our shortcomings. 

What about Sasha's short comings ?

Originally posted by Hanan

As I've been "preaching" from the very first day of my membership on this forum, "America doesn't care." We want this war to stop for all the reasons Herjihad has just stated. Heads out of the sand, please!

You know something, no one's disagreeing with Sasha about stopping the war and injustice going on, we all want that too, People really fail to see that.

Sasha, I am on your side, as I am on the side of all those who fight the war for peace. Just because the majority says something is right does NOT make it right.

You are right and its true that what the majority says is right does not make it so.

But you guys fail to see is, I am on his side to, so is Israfil and others, we like him but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping.

And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America, and while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want america’s help! Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don’t blame America and need her help! And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and/or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be!

Let’s start talking when you start bringing stories of people wanting America’s help and want these other people want and not ALL about those who don’t want America and her help and blame everything on her!!

No one disgrees that America has her faults and is not doing good in iraq and Afghanistan anymore and that the poor people there are rather hurt and struggling more like any of us.  I am glad and happy that Whisper speaks out and gives another point of view & from someone there, have always been but this constantly bashing and blaming all day long is rather i believe is futile. And i believe you cannot say some people have their heads in the sand, some americans have spoken out, look at Israfil, which people missed the point of his post. 

No one really denies! And some amercians do not like whats happening either, and I don’t like it when my government goes and follows amercia, as if we don’t have a mind of our own. I wish my government would put a time line on when our troops get out (and my uncle will stop being there in iraq doing his job) and not be like the US saying we must’ve leave (yet).

Originally posted by Israfil

Thanks Whisper "The I love your innocence" is synonomous with "I'm ignorant of what America is doing overseas" which is fine everyone has their opinion. Of course the innocence bit is also related to what Hana said about "head sin the sand."

I agree, this "The I love your innocence" (“I love you for your absolute innocence.”) Sasha's last post to Amah is consending and patronizing and it undermines her knowledge/intelligence/education. And this is why I don’t get into any of sasha’s posts/threads any more as much as I would like and pose my thoughts and opinions, as sad as it is because I do like Whisper and his unique style of writing. 

Angel,

You find it insulting, whereas I find it endearing.  Just two different points of view.  You say what about his shortcomings?  When a man's country is decimated by mine and yours, I'd say he has more right to his shortcomings than you or I.

And personally, I don't find it at all sad that you don't participate in his threads as much for the reason you stated.  This isn't a why you dislike Whisper thread.  It's a why we like him thread.

I NEVER said I disliked Sasha, please re-read!!

for goodness sake!

please check the larger bold writing up above to see.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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ops154
 
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bullet Posted: 01 January 2007 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Angel

[/QUO

I NEVER said I disliked Sasha, please re-read!!

for goodness sake!

please check the larger bold writing up above to see.

[/QUOTE]

 

Sometimes people only see what they want to in a post.

Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!
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Whisper
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bullet Posted: 01 January 2007 at 11:02am

When you have a domestic situation such as being robbed or being assaulted who do you call?

Brother, by your own logic of last week, why must we call anyone "when a crime is being committed"?

Shouldn't we just write to the criminal's Congressman, go home, have a Coke and a Double Decker Burger and sleep it off?

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bullet Posted: 01 January 2007 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Whisper

When you have a domestic situation such as being robbed or being assaulted who do you call?

Brother, by your own logic of last week, why must we call anyone "when a crime is being committed"?

Shouldn't we just write to the criminal's Congressman, go home, have a Coke and a Double Decker Burger and sleep it off?

What does this comment mean and by my own logic of last week? Speaking in riddles brother?

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bullet Posted: 02 January 2007 at 1:37am

Speaking in riddles brother?

No brother, just Whispering your advice. Last week, you advised us not to act about one of the most hideous of crimes, this Operation Iraqi Freedom, and instead write to our Congressmen. With the same logic, wouldn't you agree that we must also write to our Congressman instead of taking some action against all other crimes, as well?

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bullet Posted: 03 January 2007 at 7:41am

Whisper there is a clear distinction here from writing to your Congressman on global issues and domestic issues. I was merely commenting on the global issues in which for the average person in the U.S at least, cannot physically go over there and take personal action. What I was referring to was that if we are so animated about helping and doing things we should take action. But, since you are a stickler for specificity, when I say write to your local Congressman I'm simply referring to stating your opinion to the policy makers. Now it is obviously common sense that you call the local authorities and since you said the above I'm thinking if you were being st**id sarcasm.

By all means if you feel that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is unjust and you want to physically do something about it, go right ahead. Just make sure before you leavce to make funeral arrangements for yourself.

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bullet Posted: 03 January 2007 at 8:23am

but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping.

Angel, a very Happy New Year to you, too.

You didn’t notice, I had reformed and had started to hold the Tuvalu Islanders for fomenting and, at times, conducting all wars and killings in our world.

 

Hardly a week had gone by when one of the Americans’ very own ex-Presidents spilt all the beans, openly, in broad daylight. Now, I am just lost.

And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America

 

My friend, we believe, in fact, we know that one day, when our time is up, we will all die. We don’t really want the help of America in bulk rate speed up of this process, with their super fast killing machines.

 

It’s fun to go one by one, in our own turn and, preferably, at home with friends, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters and a nephew or two, if not the whole range of grandchildren. It’s a bit inconvenient to be killed at some poor cousin’s wedding, in the next village.

 

while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want America’s help!

 

I know, John ‘oward has been spreading such rumours.

He has also been telling people; “people would be waiting with garlands, at the end of the Cake Walk” and all such stuff.

 

Angel, that was just for pulling a bit of wool over the American public’s eyes – read Carters’ book and you would know “by who”.

 

But if you just gave me some hints about this America’s help! I promise, I will at least think about it, though it would be almost impossible for any of us to swallow it, in the face of a whole century of global events at hand.

 

Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don’t blame America and need her help!

I am here before you. I want America’s help. They can help greatly by just getting out of our countries, by stopping to exterminate us and by letting us live the way we wish to live and follow whatever system we wish to follow.

 

What more help do we want from America? You mean, learning to roller blade or how to properly deal with a whole Cheese Burger?

 

And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and / or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be!

Happy New Year, again, and I sincerely pray that this year you begin to understand THAT it would be entirely our own problem, though the U S triggered this situation and are now staying there just to foment a civil war – perhaps, for some of their Masters’ agenda.

Other than that, my friend, all the people in the world were created with all that requires them to lead their lives in just and peaceful manner. This doesn't mix with our colonisers' designs and they disturb the natural balance - for their own advantages.

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