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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Is there an Islamic response to John 3? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Cyril
 
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2006 at 6:27am
Originally posted by ysimjee

Find the original text of the Bible and Torah.

 



I have noticed that on Muslim forums words have sometimes been given a new definition.

I guess that it may be the case with "original". So I ask what does "original text of the Bible " mean?

(There is no Bible and Torah as the Torah is part of the Bible)


Edited by Cyril
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Quote Redneck Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2006 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

There are no passages in the bible where wine is forbidden.  And, if you check out Mark 7:19, you will read:

Thus he (Jesus) declared all foods clean.

So obviously, Christians are not required to follow Old Testament dietary laws.

 Peace,

 

 It's a contradiction.

 

 In Matthew Jesus (sallahau alayhe wassalam) is saying that he came not to change the laws and in Mark he is changing the laws.

 But how to explain this? I set it down to a difference in gospel writers as we see in other places major problems between Matthew's gospel and Mark's gospel. They differ drastically.

 

We may never know what Jesus (sallahu alayhe) really said.

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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2006 at 6:50pm

I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has happened.  Matthew 5:18

The phrase "until all that must happen has happened" is a reference to the death and resurrection of Jesus.  With the resurrection of Jesus, humans were no longer "under the law", so it was and is no longer necessary to follow the laws which were concerned with ritual purity (e.g., dietary laws).

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Quote Redneck Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2006 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has happened.  Matthew 5:18

The phrase "until all that must happen has happened" is a reference to the death and resurrection of Jesus.  With the resurrection of Jesus, humans were no longer "under the law", so it was and is no longer necessary to follow the laws which were concerned with ritual purity (e.g., dietary laws).

 

 Wow! Brother! What you are saying is a stretch! Does you church teach you this?

 Funky translation you are using too but it's just as telling.

 "So long as heaven and earth endure." KJV says "Till heaven and earth pass."

 How long is that? Obviously until the day of judgment.

 That's a hellofa twist you are putting on this verse.  

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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2006 at 6:03am

> Funky translation you are using too but it's just as telling.

The New English Bible, Oxford University Study Edition.  How is that "funky"?

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2006 at 6:52am

Reepicheep,

According to NIV, the title of the particular section is "The Fulfillment of the Law" and not "The Fulfillment of Jesus".

We have to read the entire passage 5:17-18 which according to NIV is:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The truth revealed in above is that if people obey the Law and live righteously, which at any cost cannot be abolished till the Judgement Day, they will enter the kingdom of God or the Heavens. "until everything is accomplished" means the accomplishment of God's Laws, wishes, God Almighty's plans and Win.

 

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2006 at 12:22pm

Although the subject is complex, I tend, at this point, to agree with Reepicheep’s reading.  As I see it, the so-called “New” testament, when considered in total, seems a type of abrogation, or, in Islamic theological parlance, perhaps naskh, of the “Old” (see, e.g., Heb 9:16).  Thus, apparent contradictions between the Old and New testaments, between the received Torah of Moses and the reported Gospel of Jesus, might be both read and at least somewhat satisfactorily resolved in that light.  Paradox, as always with Christian doctrines, seems also to apply.  Consider that certain aspects of the law of Moses may have been (I won't say) abolished by having been, in the person and work of Christ, fulfilled.   

 

It might be further kept in mind that, again as I see it, in much the same way that Islam claims a lineage which predates Muhammad and harkens back to Abraham as its progenitor, so too in Christianity the “law” of Moses and its attendant priesthood (of Aaron) becomes superceded by its antecedent, that of Melchisadek, the King of Peace, to whom Abraham himself paid tithe (Gen 14:17-20).  To Christians there was, in sum, and as the writer of Hebrews (7:12) says, a change in the priesthood and thus also a corresponding change in the law (though the details of this change are argued to this day).

 

By the way, wine (alcohol) was prohibited in the “Old” testament to those who had taken the Nazarite vow, or who were “set apart” or consecrated to God for a particular purpose:

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&let ter=N

 

Over and out ...

 

 

Serv

 

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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2006 at 3:21pm

Dear brother Serv,

That was a masterpiece and you wrote it so well and qualified so well.

Had the Bible been translated in that style, there would, perhaps, not have been so much confusion at all.

Thanks for the comments and I enjoyed the "Nasikh" part. Yes, from our Christian brothers' point of view the entire Jewish Holy Scriptures, in fact, stand abrogated by the reported writers of the reported gospels. 

Best Regards

BMZ



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