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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Is there an Islamic response to John 3? Post Reply Post New Topic
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StephenC
 
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Quote StephenC Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 11:56am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Let's come now to your 2nd remark:

"The real differences between Islam and the other two mentioned religions is that Christianity builds upon Judahism without changing anything.  Whereas, Islam changes the messages of the status of certain people in the other two religions."

Please read the Jewish Holy Scriptures side by side with the Christian Old Testament, which the Jews do not even recognise and never call it by that name and see what has been done. Read just Isaiah and Psalms of the Jewish Holy Scriptures and compare with the same of The Old Testament and find out yourself what Christianity has done to the Jewish Holy Scriptures. They made a God out of a man, whom they could not understand, while the Jews never did any such thing in their history and still remain fiercely monotheistic. Christianity changed Judaism completely and came up with a poor manifestation of God which they had spun on in Jesus.

Wonder how they did it!  It is not that Jesus did it but the writers and philosophers of the time did it. Heck, they kept on discussing the nature of Jesus for over 365-451 years and that can be seen from the two Creeds that were written 3-4 centuries after he was gone.

I Will give you an example. In Isaiah, God says,"I am the the First and I am the Last" and John after plagiarising made it, "Jesus said,'I am the Alpha and I am the Omega."

Another wrong example given in defence of trinity: "Holy, holy, holy, is God" and this does not mean three holies. In Hebrew, anything pronounced three times is the superlative degree. In other words, in modern English "Holy, holy, holy" simply means the holiest.

BMZ

I will, when I arrive at today's destination do as you suggest.  However, have I claimed that Jesus Christ was God?  Have I rejected Jesus Christ as God either?

I think if you search the many posts that I have made on this forum and others, you will not find that I have done either.  Remember I said I was more of a "John the Baptist" type believer.

I always willing to discuss Jesus Christ and his relationship to God.  But will Andulas and others lockout the discussion?

My concerns about Islam is that it (just like all religions) is filled with myths and legends.  I am not here to "put down" Islam.  I am here merely to put the truth about Islam out for discussion.

Many seem to think that the written text of the Quran is perfect.  It is not.  However, the fact that the committee produced Quran is not perfect, does not (in my opinion) destroy it.

If God wanted a perfect text, God can easily make one.  God gives us the ability to reason and to think (what other animal has our mental abilities?).  "Blind faith and obedience" is something a pet does.  Man should not.

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StephenC
 
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Quote StephenC Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 6:58pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I don't know what demon is upon you which bugging you around. You say you don't have religion but sound like pitching Jesus, Christianity against Islam and Muhammad and now Judaism. Just forget about your moronic comparisons, who cares, go get a massage from  Haggard's boy friend.
and enjoy his confession, there is no punishment for him now it will be on the Doom's day for sure.  dayhttp://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-hagg ard6nov06,0,7806096.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Well, that is real Muslim of you!  Is that what Islam really is?

By the way, I have NEVER said that I did not have religion!  I thought lying was against Islam, but I could be wrong based on the actions of some who claim to be Muslim on this forum.

What is the REAL problem you have with my postings?  Does the truth hurt that much?

Would you like to engage in honest discussion?

Pick anything I have said and let us discuss it.  Show me that I lied  and I will make my apologies and leave defeated.

 

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Dzul
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Quote Dzul Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 8:30pm

StephenC says, "What is the REAL problem you have with my postings?  Does the truth hurt that much?"

Why must you impose your TRUTH here? After so many people have said that you can believe anything you like and if you cannot accept anything from here, why don't you quietly open another forum like the one from Angela's Plan ?

I do not know whether the truth here hurts you till you can come out with a lot of postings whenever your previous post had been replied. Actually from where I am looking, you are always accusing us of the frustrated feelings you are habouring...

StephenC says, "Many seem to think that the written text of the Quran is perfect.  It is not.  However, the fact that the committee produced Quran is not perfect, does not (in my opinion) destroy it."

Here is one example that really hits a raw nerve with Muslims. Muslims must believe that Quran is perfect...period. If you cannot accept that than just leave us alone... that's all. You say about the written text in Quran is not perfect ? Do you know that in the region where I am right now has been using written text exactly from the Quran to cure many ailments ? But still you can dismiss this easily and I will not mind it at all. Like I said before, it doesn't matter even for a single atom how absurd you think Muslim based their religion upon. You can laugh as hard as you like but please keep your opinion to yourself.

The problem I have with your postings is you already have the answers to the questions that you post here. You are merely using the questions as baits to make fun of us.

 

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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 8:35pm

Dzul wrote:

>Do you know that in the region where I am right now has been using written text exactly from the Quran to cure many ailments ?

Can you provide us with more details, please?

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Dzul
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Quote Dzul Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 9:01pm

To StephenC

Before you say that you did not mean to make fun of us, by saying that Muslims are blind towards the faith... is making fun of the millions of Muslims around the world....

So you are the enlightened one is it? So continue enlighten everyone else in your own space and forum...

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StephenC
 
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Quote StephenC Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by Dzul

To StephenC

Before you say that you did not mean to make fun of us, by saying that Muslims are blind towards the faith... is making fun of the millions of Muslims around the world....

So you are the enlightened one is it? So continue enlighten everyone else in your own space and forum...

Who forced you to read my postings?  Do you own this forum?  Is my posting on this forum costing you or anyone else any additional money?

I am just as much of a member of this forum as you.

Am I posting in the Muslim only forums?  No.  I am now only posting here and in the forum for non-muslims.

By the way, the only way someone can make fun of you is if you let them.

I treat all religions the same.

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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 9:23pm

Welcome & Greetings, Reepicheep

What a pleasant surprise! Glad to see you here. 

Best Regards

BMZ

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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2006 at 10:25pm

Originally posted by stephenc

Originally posted by andalus

Originally posted by StephenC

Which sounds more creditable:

The story of Jesus Christ

or

The story of Muhammad?

As Jesus said, you can tell the truthfulness of a prophet by his works.

How can you be sure what Jesus said?

 

[quote]

Let's see.  The life and times of Jesus Christ in the New Testament was written by contempary eyewitnesses who's accounts while not exactly the same (no witness gives the exact same account as anotheer witness) gives basically the same events and sayings.

Your are asserting again, without evidence or proof.

1)      Please give me the name of the contemporary who wrote the document, and the name of the person to whom it was passed on.

2)      Hundreds of narratives existed. Please tell us which ones were correct.

3)      Authenticate the narratives of the NT.

4)      The NT was not put together until well into the third century.

Originally posted by StephenC

With the life and times of Muhammad in the Quran, it was written well by a committee who picked and chose what would go in and what would not.

The nature of the Quran was transmitted primarily through memorization. The Quran is supposed to be recited. Writing was only a secondary means for preservation. The Quran was already memorized and written at the death of the Prophet (saw).

1)      Provide proof that someone threw out something that was a part of the Quran. (please provide proof of your charge, you have been wanred over and over about this)

2)      The Quran was taught by the Prophet (saw), and taught to those around him, and memorized it. It was not some new novelty after his death.

3)      You want to keep whining about a “committee”, yet it was the Christian NT that was put together by a committee, centuries after the death of Jesus, who chose the narratives based upon pure conjecture and speculation. Lets not forget the fact that the narratives they did choose exist as copies, of copies, of copies of the originals, and exists as variant.

4)      The very fact that an authoritative edition, an official “key”, that would be the official standard of what the Quran is in written form was put together by men who actually learned directly from the Prophet does not do any damage to the integrity of the Quran. The fact that you feel more comfortable with the NT, a book put together by men centuries after the event, a book that contains narratives that were among hundreds of narratives, without any way of knowing what was right or wrong, proves just how prejudiced you are. And I am 99% certain you are an evangelical. Your replies and obfuscation, and deflections, are right on the MO of a missionary.

Originally posted by stephenc

  Anything not included in the final Quran was destroyed.  This committee was commissioned by someone who allegedly showed favoritism and bias towards his own clan.

This begs the question: Why would someone keep errors? Unless you can prove that the “Quran” was thrown out during this time, do not keep repeating this charge.

Your next charge is, like most of your dribble, incomplete. “This committee was commissioned by someone who allegedly showed favoritism and bias towards his own clan.” My reply is: Who was showing favoritism? What is the favoritism that would have corrupted the Quran? And show what was thrown out due to the favoritism?

I find your replies odd. No one with any serious background would take your theories serious, or base any serious conclusion from them. They are waay to far fetched, and one must use a great deal of imagination to fill in the gaps to find your conclusion.

Originally posted by stephenc

Originally posted by andalus

Originally posted by StephenC

I would add, you can tell the truthfulness of a religion by how it treats people.

The Jewish and Muslim religions have strict punishments for the slightest violations.

Irrational.

Christianity allows people to do whatever they like, therefore it is a better religion. LOL...Thats what you just said.

Islam, nor Judaism punish for the slightest violations.

I just love your one word sentence.  They pack such insight into them that no explanation would seem to be necessary, unless of course the reader demands more than"blind faith and obedience!"

Pot calling the kettle black? You place drunkard utterances and then exclaim huge conclusions, and then have the audacity to think that everyone should be as inebriated as you are in order to make the same sweeping jumps to such absurd conclusions. The world is not all entirely inebriated; we require more clarification, evidence, and an argument to find your absurd utterance.

You stated that a faith can be judged truthful about how it treats its people, and then followed with a typical Christian howler about “punishments” and “slightest violations”.

You are implying that Christianity is true because it is easier. That is irrational. Please tell me where this is wrong? I do not care if you are unable to keep up with this thread, that’s really a matter of your lack of background.

 

Originally posted by stephenc

I am not such a person.  God gave me a brain to reason and ask questions.  If you would quit being so timid about your religion and attempt to give honest answers to honest questions, you would learn more.

Your questions are sophomoric and completely juvenile. You ask some of the same things, when replied to, you deflect, find trivial items to carp on, and then after 30,000 lines of your tautological dribble, you repeat the same odd utterances. Your questions are usually complex, with assumptions buried in them that are a direct result of your ignorance and weakness in critical thinking. I should not be forced to run in circles due to your lack of education and knowledge of religion. If you stop thinking so highly of yourself, and take time to crack open books, and take a basic critical thinking course, you might actually come to know how foolish your position has been, and maybe you would offer an apology!

Originally posted by stephenc

And no, I did not say Christians could do whatever they want.  And NO your lie is not what I said.  Anyone can read what I wrote.  Well, maybe you can not, but others can.

Actually, that is exactly what you implied. If you do not like what the direct implication is, then stop sounding off like a broke drunkard and take the time to be coherent and clarify what you mean and how your conclusions are found.

 

Originally posted by stephenc

Originally posted by andalus

Originally posted by StephenC

How does the religious punishments of Christianity compare to that of Judahism and Islam?

Your "complex" question uses an assumption that is false. The comparison cannot be made given the ambiguity of Christian theology regarding "law" . Depends how you interpret the Pauline letters as to how much law from the Torah, or Hebrew Scriptures you will use.

Christendom, for the most part, have chosen to reject Gd's law out of convenience, as they create their own, and that has been revised with utter failure for 2000 years. 

Initially, I would take except with your characterization of my posting as "complex questions" but then I realize that to a person who likes to post one word sentences, anything containing more than two words maybe "complex."

Irrational ranting. Your opinion about my reply does not make your question any more valid. You are beginning one of your famous deflections. Find an excuse to ignore a valid, and factual point, and then move on like it is all ok. It is still a complex question.

Originally posted by stephenc

 

I could break it down to:

How does the punishments of Christianity compare to that of Judahism?

and

How dooes the punishments of Christianity compare to that of Islam?

Does that make it easier for you to understand?  Care to answer, perferrably with more than a one word answer?  But if it is a strain, don't! 

The questions are just separate from the original question. The assumption is still buried in your “questions”, instead of the “one”.  Let me re-paste what you purposely avoided.

“Your "complex" question uses an assumption that is false. The comparison cannot be made given the ambiguity of Christian theology regarding "law" . Depends how you interpret the Pauline letters as to how much law from the Torah, or Hebrew Scriptures you will use.

Christendom, for the most part, have chosen to reject Gd's law out of convenience, as they create their own, and that has been revised with utter failure for 2000 years. “

You have to clarify time period and sect (Of Christianity).

Your lack of education about this topic makes it difficult to have a coherent discussion. Really.

 

Originally posted by StephenC

As for YOUR BASELESS claim that "Christendom, for the most part, have chosen to reject Gd's law out of convenience, as they create their own, and that has been revised with utter failure for 2000 years. "

What is your proof?

History! History recorded from the third century to the 20th century.

Originally posted by STephenc

Yes, some Christian religions have adopted pagan churches and traditions, but so has Islam!

That was one of those “drunkard like utterances”. You made, absolutely, no sense at all. Christians adopting churches?????? Pagan churches???? Traditions? Islam adopted a pagan church? Stephen, put the bottle down, or crack pipe, or whatever it is you are fixed to, and brush this up when you are a bit more coherent. LOL. Seriously.

Originally posted by stephenc

Some Christians have elevated apostles to positions of semi-worship, but so has islam!

Shall I continue or will removing the veil from your eyes offend you too much?

Your crack pipe is offensive, as your ranting is giving me a headache. What does any of this irrelevant dribble have to do with the unproven or argued assumption that you have buried in your question?

Answer: Nothing. It was a way for you to throw in another accusation about Islam. This is another waste of time.

Originally posted by stephenc

Originally posted by andalus

Originally posted by stephenc

Remember, we all worship the same God, it is the messengers (including false messengers) that cause the problems!

how do you know? How can you be sure?

There is some merit to the theory that certain religions worship the Devil.  However, I am not prepared to make such a claim without proof.  I tend to accept doctrine unless it is faulty.

For example, it is my understanding that Judahism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the God of Abraham.  And that the major differences is what the various prophets allegedly claimed.

The real differences between Islam and the other two mentioned religions is that Christianity builds upon Judahism without changing anything.  Whereas, Islam changes the messages of the status of certain people in the other two religions.

Christianity has to build upon the Hebrew Scriptures because it is dependent up it, it is a must; Christianity is replacement theology, so it has to be built upon the HS. Its nature requires it. This is out of necessity. Replacement theology completely changes the Hebrew Scriptures, and alters their meanings, the nature of Gd, and the replaces the people of Judah with pork eating gentiles. Replacement theology also changes the nature of sin, evil, and the sacrificial system. You really do not know your theology, not mine, not that of the Jews, but you sound like a missionary!

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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