Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Is there an Islamic response to John 3? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Sarita
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 31 October 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 21
Quote Sarita Replybullet Topic: Is there an Islamic response to John 3?
    Posted: 03 November 2006 at 6:54am

This is the chapter of the Bible I base my faith on. Does Islam have a response to this? I posted the chapter below, I could really use your insight. Thank you all so much! God bless you!

John 3

 1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”

 3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a] you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

 4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

 5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

 9 “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.

 10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[e] has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.[f]

 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

 18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]

IP IP Logged
Andalus
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1187
Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Sarita

This is the chapter of the Bible I base my faith on. Does Islam have a response to this? I posted the chapter below, I could really use your insight. Thank you all so much! God bless you!

John 3

 1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”

 3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a] you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

 4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

 5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

 9 “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.

 10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[e] has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.[f]

 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

 18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]

Greetings Sarita.

That is a nice passage, and it is a favorite to many Christians. There are several theological points in the verses, and so I am curious. Is there a single, major point that you are curious about?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
IP IP Logged
Cyril
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2006 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Sarita

John 316 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.


This text that looks so nice says people who believe in Jesus (as the Son of the Trinity) will have eternal life.

But what about the people who do not believe in him (as the Son of the Trinity), among them the billions Muslims?

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.


Here we have the answer together with a contradiction: God did not sent Jesus to judge the world.
But it is exactly the contrary that he does: those who do not believe are already judged.





Edited by Cyril
IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2006 at 9:20am

Greetings, Sarita

My response: In blue

John 3

 1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”

Here, Nicodemus confirms by saying,"we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.” that God sent Jesus as a teacher with powers to show miraculous signs. However, Nicodemus did not suggest that he was God.  

 3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a] you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

 4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

Here in above Nicodemus has been shown by John to be dumb and silly, as if he did not understand what "born again" meant.

 5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

From the above reply, we can see that Jesus is simply saying that humans will be brought to life after death.

 9 “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.

Nicodemus again asks a silly question. 

 10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[e] has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.[f]

Look at the way, John introduces the Son of Man and Moses lifting up the bronze snake on a pole which has nothing to do with the question that Nicodemus asked.

 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

Now, this is NOT from Jesus. This is John's own view/statement which also is not relevant to the topic that Jesus and Nicodemus were discussing. Jesus ws discussing life after death and John has turned it into Son of Man and Son of God. Note that Jews only believe that they will remain dead and they will have life again only after the Messiah comes and he will raise all the dead Jews.

 18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]

That again is John's own view and it has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

God bless. Ameen.

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
IP IP Logged
Sign*Reader
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3352
Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2006 at 2:07am

THREE GRADES OF EVIDENCE

I have no hesitation in telling you that in Bible there are three different categories of witnessing apparent without any need of specialized training to discern these:

1. You will recognize in the Bible what may be described as "The Word of God."

2. You will also discern what can be described as the "Words/ saying of a Prophets of God."

3. And you will most readily observe that the bulk of the Bible is the records of eye witnesses or written from hearsay. As such they are the "Words what a historian would write" You want to take it leave it without much harm to faith in God.

You do not have to hunt for examples of these different types of evidences in the Bible. The following quotations will make the position crystal clear:

The FIRST Category:

(a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in ... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)

(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11)

(c) "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else." (Isaiah 45:22)

Note the first person pronoun singular (highlighted in green) in the above references, and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seem to have the sound of being GOD'S WORD.

The SECOND Category:

(a) "Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? . . ." (Matthew 27:46)

(b) "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:" (Mark 12:29)

(c) "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18).

Even a child will be able to affirm that: Jesus "cried" Jesus "answered" and Jesus "said" are the words of the one to whom they are attributed, i.e. the WORDS OF A PROPHET OF GOD.

The THIRD Category :

"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (JESUS) came, if haply he (JESUS) might find anything thereon: and when he (JESUS) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . ." (Mark 11:13)

The bulk of the Bible is a witnessing of this THIRD kind. These are the words of a third person. Note the underlined pronouns. They are not the Words of God or of His prophet, but the WORDS OF A HISTORIAN.

For knowledgeable Muslim it is cinch to distinguish the above types of evidence, cus he also has them in his own faith but clearly separated from each other.

 Category ONE: THE WORD OF GOD — is the Book called The Holy Qur’an.

TWO: — THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET OF GOD, (Muhummed, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are in the Books of Tradition called The Hadith.

THREE: Evidence of the third kind abounds in different volume of Islamic history, written by some of the highest integrity and learning.

The Prophet established the model of the first University in the world in his life time. From which sprung the keepers of truth that we have the minutest detail of His life whereas the Jesus life and its details are known for not more than 3 years of his ministry and then none consistent.

In Islamic system there is no way these categories can get mixed up, when quoted the speaker or writer must specify clearly. He never equates them in their level of authority.

On the other hand, the "Holy Bible"  is a motley reading, which contain the embarrassing kind, the sordid, and the obscene — all under the same cover — A Christian has no choice or doesn't care to concede equal spiritual import and authority to all, and is thus unfortunate in this regard. Then  coming to Islam for it's veracity checkout, sure  I will do it---Let's look at  it with the above yard stick 

Originally posted by Sarita

This is the chapter of the Bible I base my faith on. Does Islam have a response to this? I posted the chapter below, I could really use your insight. Thank you all so much! God bless you!

I hope your foundation better be good one to withstand the test. You don’t want your faith failing you on the judgment day and leaving in lurch cus it was not on God’s words on prima facie evidence as we see it clearly.

Wont you agree  blue hi light sounds like Jesus stated and somebody recorded, in red somebody else said or recorded..

Can not find anything stated in first person by God Almighty in these passages.

Originally posted by Sarita

1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”

Normally I will sit on the side lines when I see Br. MBZ taking the lead on things related to Bible quandaries but I couldn’t keep my 2 cents.

The above passage fits into the HISTORIAN or THIRD PERSON  category .

 

Originally posted by Sarita

3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a] you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

Originally posted by Sarita

4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

 The above passage fits into the HISTORIAN or THIRD PERSON  category .

5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.[b] 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.[c] 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

 9 “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.

 10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[e] has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.[f]

 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

 18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]

CONCLUSION: THESE PASSAGES DO NOT PASS THE MUSTER OF THE DIVINE REVELATION AND BE THE FOUNDATION OF FAITH AS FAR AS ISLAM IS CONCERNED. IMHO IF PAUL HAD NOT GONE WEST (ATHENS) BUT EAST, THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT. ALAS

Sarita you need to know very clearly from the get go, Islam is the faith of un compromising monotheism just like examples quoted in category 1 above.

And the standard prayer for Muslim has signs of God which are  absolutely definitive in purity of unity of God.

112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112:4 And there is none like unto Him.

Think it this way there are more than a billion Muslim in the world nobody has any negotiation authority to make any deviation from above. Yes there are deviant cults created at the behest of the imperialists and colonizers or some individual charlatan out to ruin some ignorant folks but then they fall outside the realm of blessed Islam.

35:8 >>>>>For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do! -

 

 

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2006 at 3:13am

Sign*Reader,

That was an excellent categorisation and I fully concur with you on that. When I have time in future, I will edit the New Testament like Jefferson did but I would be extracting only what Jesus really seems to have said or spoken.

You have already classified the NT well and one will easily note that John blends his own thoughts to ascribe a lot of statements to Jesus as if Jesus really said that but any reader can easily make out that those words were not from Jesus.

You wrote: "The FIRST Category:

(a) I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in ... and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:18)

(b) I even, I am the Lord, and beside me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11)

(c) "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else." (Isaiah 45:22)"

That First Category of "I" is also the Last and you have rightly quoted Surah Ikhlas which is the final answer.

From you: "CONCLUSION: THESE PASSAGES DO NOT PASS THE MUSTER OF THE DIVINE REVELATION AND BE THE FOUNDATION OF FAITH AS FAR AS ISLAM IS CONCERNED. IMHO IF PAUL HAD NOT GONE WEST (ATHENS) BUT EAST, THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT. ALAS"

Yes, things would have been different and moreover, he went further West to Rome. That was another disaster!

Thanks & Best Regards

Assalaamo Alaikum

BMZ

IP IP Logged
StephenC
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 16 September 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 264
Quote StephenC Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2006 at 7:02pm

Which sounds more creditable:

The story of Jesus Christ

or

The story of Muhammad?

As Jesus said, you can tell the truthfulness of a prophet by his works.

I would add, you can tell the truthfulness of a religion by how it treats people.

The Jewish and Muslim religions have strict punishments for the slightest violations.

How does the religious punishments of Christianity compare to that of Judahism and Islam?

I realize that over the years individuals and committees have converted religious beliefs for person gain and bias, but reading the actual text - which religion is more in line with what YOU think God is like?

Remember, we all worship the same God, it is the messengers (including false messengers) that cause the problems!

IP IP Logged
Andalus
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1187
Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2006 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by StephenC

Which sounds more creditable:

The story of Jesus Christ

or

The story of Muhammad?

As Jesus said, you can tell the truthfulness of a prophet by his works.

How can you be sure what Jesus said?

 

I would add, you can tell the truthfulness of a religion by how it treats people.

The Jewish and Muslim religions have strict punishments for the slightest violations.

Irrational.

Christianity allows people to do whatever they like, therefore it is a better religion. LOL...Thats what you just said.

Islam, nor Judaism punish for the slightest violations.

How does the religious punishments of Christianity compare to that of Judahism and Islam?

Your "complex" question uses an assumption that is false. The comparison cannot be made given the ambiguity of Christian theology regarding "law" . Depends how you interpret the Pauline letters as to how much law from the Torah, or Hebrew Scriptures you will use.

Christendom, for the most part, have chosen to reject Gd's law out of convenience, as they create their own, and that has been revised with utter failure for 2000 years. 

I realize that over the years individuals and committees have converted religious beliefs for person gain and bias, but reading the actual text - which religion is more in line with what YOU think God is like?

Who cares. If you think you can define Gd based upon complete conjecture, then you are more ignorant than I ever would have guessed.

Here is a tip (it is free for you):

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt

-Lincoln

 

Remember, we all worship the same God, it is the messengers (including false messengers) that cause the problems!

how do you know? How can you be sure?

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
IP IP Logged
Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com