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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 21 June 2010 at 8:22am
Originally posted by martha

Salams Sign*

The UK government have every right to exclude Zakir IF they feel he is a threat. This 'gentle soul' as you describe him has had 20 fatwa's issued in the US alone!

WHat we should realise is that being a scholar does not mean they hold to sound Islamic doctrine. Muslims should preserve God's word, not make up their own for their own publicity and wealth.

THe UK is a small country in comparison to the US. It is the 'kafir's' right to protect his family, home and country from anyone that causes a threat, including this Zakir if necessary. So let the UK government do as they like thanks, they are NOT affecting your daily life are they?



Actually in this case Sis, I think Sign gave an appropriate example of Zakir Naik and the double-standards regarding "Freedom of Speech". Its okay to malign certain religions while its not okay to express opinions about UBL and Jews ? (I am not condoning Anti-Jewism, just giving an e.g.)

Either it should be a blanket policy allowing F.O.E for ALL people regardless of their background - OR the Govt should curb any/all insults/malign . . . . 

If Salman Rushdie has a right to express himself - the same courtesy should be extended to Dr. Naik. Otherwise the British Govt should simply stop blowing the trumpet of Freedom of Speech . . .




Edited by Chrysalis - 21 June 2010 at 8:22am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 21 June 2010 at 8:54am
Originally posted by martha

Salams Sign*

I completely disagree with your above post. You really do like to incite your own hatred to all that doesn't agree with your view.
I agree with you 100% that you have that right to disagree. You have to prove the part incite though! Some how I am seeing not martha but Theresa May herself!

You hate the British, you hate non-muslims...in fact I am not sure who you do like .
The days of divine rights of Brits are over so get over that! You don't need to get bent out shape unless you clearly define the precedent first about hate, a broad generalized statement will make you look foolish...You to be arbiter who would I love or hate is preposterous!
You don't need to be sure of anything but just yourself if you can!


The UK government have every right to exclude Zakir IF they feel he is a threat.
That is right and that is the point.  What happened to the freedom of speech mantra?
 This 'gentle soul' as you describe him has had 20 fatwa's issued in the US alone!
Fill in the details what 20 Fatwas? BTW he is no Mufti, he lectures and answers people's questions about things other smaty pants don't have the answers! Too bad if people are afraid to match his wits!
I think it will be great to see Mrs. Mays and Dr. Naik debate at some neutral location!

WHat we should realise is that being a scholar does not mean they hold to sound Islamic doctrine. Muslims should preserve God's word, not make up their own for their own publicity and wealth.
THe UK is a small country in comparison to the US. It is the 'kafir's' right to protect his family, home and country from anyone that causes a threat, including this Zakir if necessary.
What UK's doing in Afghanistan and did in Iraq if it is small country and wants to mind her business? "Kafir" point is non sequitur martha
So let the UK government do as they like thanks, they are NOT affecting your daily life are they?
True! I do this for kicks

NB Please don't reply with saying what bad things the Brits did centuries ago...it is rather boring. You need to change the record brother.
It is case by case basis...I hate to tell you don't let your personal problems color this forum discussions!
 I couldn't care less what the Brits or any empire did centuries ago...
When there is political discussion on issues there are no holy cows..It is like going to a doctor's office with a complaint and not strip down give blood or pee sample when ordered cuz that will reveal some secrets or misconduct but still want the Rx for disease to go away...LOL

martha take some thing to relax, it is just internet debate aka running in special Olympics

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Ron Webb
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bullet Posted: 21 June 2010 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Actually in this case Sis, I think Sign gave an appropriate example of Zakir Naik and the double-standards regarding "Freedom of Speech". Its okay to malign certain religions while its not okay to express opinions about UBL and Jews ? (I am not condoning Anti-Jewism, just giving an e.g.)
 
This has nothing to do with maligning religions.  Zakir Naik was banned because he supports and advocates terrorism.  Rushdie does not.  Any comparison is ludicrous.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 21 June 2010 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Actually in this case Sis, I think Sign gave an appropriate example of Zakir Naik and the double-standards regarding "Freedom of Speech". Its okay to malign certain religions while its not okay to express opinions about UBL and Jews ? (I am not condoning Anti-Jewism, just giving an e.g.)
 
This has nothing to do with maligning religions.  Zakir Naik was banned because he supports and advocates terrorism.  Rushdie does not.  Any comparison is ludicrous.

Terrorism really! may be look at this first!
 You don't have a religion so you don't get to vote that you don't understand!
BTW Can I use Rushie's TSV language on you to make a point in next round so you may not complain?

It is yes or no prop cuz you seem to be so well versed about Rushdie stuff!
 
And where Dr. Zakir is supporting terrorism, ?
If you saw some rhetorical answers to a question thrown in his face then you are really catching on straws!

He is an Indian Muslim he would be in slammer in a heart beat if there was any proof about his terrorism advocacy...he is not sitting in some safe haven that US Uk doesn't have access to!

Why don't Mrs Mays have him arrested when he lands there with the charge sheet in hand!
What could be better opportunity than that?

Don't you know... Arrogance is one thing, ignorance is another, combining them seldom causes shame as that takes a conscience...And faithless people lack that.Period

I am picking up a sociopath's drivel in dire need of some choice compliments from TSVs language that is so lovely for all the western hypocrites!

Are you sure you are not a closet zionist troll?



Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2010 at 12:51pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 12:56am
 
This has nothing to do with maligning religions.  Zakir Naik was banned because he supports and advocates terrorism.  Rushdie does not.  Any comparison is ludicrous.


Anyone who has seen that lecture knows it is not true and that he never advocated terrorism in his lecture. This video is years old.

I have been following his videos and lectures since the start. You watch a couple of vids (while you may disagree with his views) you will realize that he most certainly is not one of the terrorism advocating preachers.


Edited by Chrysalis - 23 June 2010 at 12:58am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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martha
 
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bullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 2:44am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by martha

Salams Sign*

I completely disagree with your above post. You really do like to incite your own hatred to all that doesn't agree with your view.
I agree with you 100% that you have that right to disagree. You have to prove the part incite though! Some how I am seeing not martha but Theresa May herself!
Salams Sign*I don;'t need to prove anything here. The fact is you  always ..hmm...mainly write in a negative  and argumentative way. You cannot deny that. Whisper (bless him) was your greatest teacher. I just look forward to the day when you mellow and become more forgiving to those that don't fit in with your ideas. TO be so cross all the time is not good . Of course, not having met you, it is difficult to see the REAL you, you could be a cuddly, loveable, cheery blokey. Forums never bring out the REAL persona.
 
 You hate the British, you hate non-muslims...in fact I am not sure who you do like .
The days of divine rights of Brits are over so get over that! You don't need to get bent out shape unless you clearly define the precedent first about hate, a broad generalized statement will make you look foolish...You to be arbiter who would I love or hate is preposterous!
You don't need to be sure of anything but just yourself if you can!

Sign* Your first sentence makes me laugh. I don;t need to get over anything regarding British rule. THat is history. We both agree certain events were wrong and should not be repeated. BUt it is you who keeps bringing up the past, I have,since being in this forum,  always said we must move forward if the world is to become a better place. I am trying to make it so...can you try to do the same please?
The UK government have every right to exclude Zakir IF they feel he is a threat.
That is right and that is the point.  What happened to the freedom of speech mantra?
Freedom of speech will inevitably lead to Freedom on making choices. Therasa May has made her judgement on what she undestands to be true about Zakir. And sure, if I were her I would do the same. Not enough is known here  about him by the general public/government. With that in mind it would be foolish to allow a possible enemy into the camp. Neither would you if for example  Geert Wilders wanted to 'fly in'..would you welcome him with open arms? No of course you wouldn't. So it is the same in this instance.
The best way to handle this Theresa May situation would be for all muslims to be calm, write to her maybe so she understands who this Zakir fellow is. Certainly by complaining about the decision she has made will just add more fuel to the fire. SHe is not likely to change her mind at present, is she?
 This 'gentle soul' as you describe him has had 20 fatwa's issued in the US alone!
Fill in the details what 20 Fatwas? BTW he is no Mufti, he lectures and answers people's questions about things other smaty pants don't have the answers! Too bad if people are afraid to match his wits!
I think it will be great to see Mrs. Mays and Dr. Naik debate at some neutral location!
Right, he is no mufti, he just answers questions. BUt with the mish mash of hadiths..who's to say he answers anything correctly? Does any mufti or scholar? Sure, I know he is well thought of by many of the asian continent. And sure..I think it would be a great idea if he had a tete a tete with Theresa.
I am not an American muslim and rely upon Wiki here for the following.
 
Fatwas

In August 2008, Darul Uloom Deoband issued a fatwa stating: "The statements made by Dr Zakir Naik indicate that he is a preacher of Ghair Muqallidin. One should not rely upon his speeches." [47]

The Shariah Board of America has also issued more than 20 fatwas against Naik on their website. They believe Naik has gone astray, as he is not a scholar and issues Islamic teachings without authority or any knowledge to do so, which is dangerous to Islam; "Naik is known for discussions on comparative religions. He is not a qualified Aalim of deen. His comments on fiqh have no merit. If it is true that he condemned the fiqh of the Imams, then that in itself is a clear indication of his lack of fiqh and understanding of Shairah. We have come across a fatwa from Darul Ifta Jamia Binnoria, Pakistan regarding Zakir Naik not being a certified Aalim of Deen. He should consult with Ulama in his endeavor of propagating deen."[48][49]

In November 2008 the Lucknow based cleric Abul Irfan Mian Firangi Mahali issued a fatwa against Naik, describing Naik as a "Kafir" (non-believer) and stating in the fatwa, that Naik should be ex-communicated from Islam. He argued that "Naik is not an Islamic scholar. His teachings are against the Koran. In his speeches, he insults Allah and glorifies Yazeed, the killer of Imam Hussain" and that Naik had supported Laden and called upon all Muslims to become terrorists. Naik, however, said that his speeches were misquoted and that he was allegedly targeted by people with vested interests and said of the fatwa "fatwas mean nothing. They should also issue fatwas against Imam Bukhari. Some clerics who have limited understanding of Islam are doing these things. It doesn't affect me". The All-India Sunni Board and Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani Foundation have also defended Naik.

I expect Mrs Mays relied upon similar sources(rightly or wrongly) and has made her judgement accordingly for the welfare and security of the UK. I would imagine the general public are relieved. The previous government were far too soft on visitors..even letting in Geert Wilders as you pointed out. We don;t know if Mrs Mays would let him in,now do we? Possibly not. I am sure you would see her in a more favourable light if this were the case.

WHat we should realise is that being a scholar does not mean they hold to sound Islamic doctrine. Muslims should preserve God's word, not make up their own for their own publicity and wealth.
THe UK is a small country in comparison to the US. It is the 'kafir's' right to protect his family, home and country from anyone that causes a threat, including this Zakir if necessary.
What UK's doing in Afghanistan and did in Iraq if it is small country and wants to mind her business? "Kafir" point is non sequitur martha
Yep! I agree, as do most of the UK citizens. The former government liked to be so far up the American governments arse it was unbelievable! We will see what Cameron/Clegg will do in regards to this. My example ofthe kafirs was a tongue in cheek comment. On a more serious note it is human nature to protect their own kith and kin, religion aside.

So let the UK government do as they like thanks, they are NOT affecting your daily life are they?
True! I do this for kicks

Good I am glad Smile  As for myself I am generally serious when discussing the lives of other people. DOn't get me wrong, religion and politics aside I have a good laugh. 

NB Please don't reply with saying  what bad things the Brits did centuries ago...it is rather boring. You need to change the record brother.
It is case by case basis...I hate to tell you don't let your personal problems color this forum discussions!
 I couldn't care less what the Brits or any empire did centuries ago...
When there is political discussion on issues there are no holy cows..It is like going to a doctor's office with a complaint and not strip down give blood or pee sample when ordered cuz that will reveal some secrets or misconduct but still want the Rx for disease to go away...LOL
It is case by case basis...I hate to tell you don't let your personal problems color this forum discussion! etc etc

martha take some thing to relax, it is just internet debate aka running in special Olympics

 
Igualmente Big%20smile
No discussion here is worth an increase of the blood pressure. BUt one more thing. What we post here has a huge impact on non-muslims. If we go at it like a bull in a china shop and always acuse the neighbour instead then we are less likely to be invited for a cup of tea tomorrow.
We should all be pacifists in this forum. Don't you agree?
 
Smile
 
 
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 4:22am
Originally posted by martha

In August 2008, Darul Uloom Deoband issued a fatwa stating: "The statements made by Dr Zakir Naik indicate that he is a preacher of Ghair Muqallidin. One should not rely upon his speeches." [47]

In November 2008 the Lucknow based cleric Abul Irfan Mian Firangi Mahali issued a fatwa against Naik, describing Naik as a "Kafir" (non-believer) and stating in the fatwa, that Naik should be ex-communicated from Islam. He argued that "Naik is not an Islamic scholar. His teachings are against the Koran. In his speeches, he insults Allah and glorifies Yazeed, the killer of Imam Hussain" and that Naik had supported Laden and called upon all Muslims to become terrorists. Naik, however, said that his speeches were misquoted and that he was allegedly targeted by people with vested interests and said of the fatwa "fatwas mean nothing. They should also issue fatwas against Imam Bukhari. Some clerics who have limited understanding of Islam are doing these things. It doesn't affect me". The All-India Sunni Board and Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani Foundation have also defended Naik.

 
Hello Martha. This is all just a load of crock. The fact that the people above are labeling him a "Kaafir" says a lot about their substance !

The only thing that is factual in the above information is that Zakir Naik is not an Aalim in the sense that he did not graduate in religious studies. He has never claimed that - however he is a learned man and bases whatever he says on Islamic sources. So you can choose to accept that reject his personal opinions.

In Islam - a "paper qualification" or degree does not give a person any religious advantage over another. I can assure you that a lot of un-qualified, non-degree holding Muslims are more knowledgeable about Islam and better da'ees (propagators) compared to 'Mullah's & 'Maulvis' who have that piece of paper to back their 'qualification'.


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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martha
 
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bullet Posted: 23 June 2010 at 8:16am
Hello Chrysalis,

I appreciate what you are saying. And this is a typical situation for me, as in who do you believe or trust within the religion? For some American muslims they see Zakir Naik as being on the wrong path. In asia (India/Pakistan) he is much admired. Surely then it will be difficult for non-muslims? Why should we blame Theresa Mays for making her decision? I can only assume that some American muslims regard her decision as solid judgement.

What is curious is that several years back Yusef Islam experienced the same when he travelled to the US from the UK. It happens. ANd he was on a family trip, lol.

I have also discussed with others here about scholars etc. Who exactly is kosher these days? Unfortunately the same applies when discussing hadiths. Seems it mainly depends on who you are and where you are born and live as to who or what you follow.

I find that disturbing especially when Islam is meant to be an easy religion to understand.

This is NOT the Islam the prophet(pbuh) gave mankind.


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