Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Conservative Muslims Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
ZubairH
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 11 February 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Quote ZubairH Replybullet Topic: Conservative Muslims
    Posted: 05 October 2006 at 3:44pm
I honestly dont like when muslims become too fundamental and conservative. It really sickens me. They say you must pray every rakat, even sunnah. They say that if you eat medicine, then you will break your fast. They say that women who dont wear hijabs will burn in hell for doing so, even if they practice and believe. They say that kufaars wil burn in hell forever, even if they were nice people.

Would Allah really be this mean? I don't think so. Who would be mean enough to put someone in that much torture forever unless he is as bad as satan himself? Of course they will go to hell, if they were nice then not so torturous, then they will come out and live in the lowest of heavens, yet still a heaven. This is what I believe. Not just People of the book, everybody. Its really not their fault that they were Hindu, or Christian, or Jewish, or Athiest, unless they converted to. It was the culture and family they were raised with that put in their brains, sort of like being brainwashed but without ever having anything in the beginning. If Allah did send another religion down, hypothetically speaking, and it was really the true word of god, then would you believe in that religion? No of course not. You believe that this is the last religion. So do Christians and Jews, and others, they believe this because of what the Old and New Testament say. They dont believe there is another religion after theirs. Of course these writings have changed, but do they think that? No. If our Koran had been changed in the 11th century, and it has been changed to say that alcohol was allowed, would we know? If we did, why would anyone believe it? Hypothetically speaking.

Although those people will have to face some punishment because they are not really muslims, I dont think it will be a serious one, if they were good people and truly respected a god. At least if the are monotheistic, you must give me. Muslims will be treated the same way, but being a muslim, it acts as having more rewards than others.

I also want to make the point, doing anything, even drugs, even those that intoxicate, are NOT haraam, IFit does not steer your mind away from god, or if it does less damage then good, or if it is unsignificant damage, like gives you constipation or headaches or something. Remember, it applies to EVERYTHING.

Also, why do many muslims believe that sufi people are not true or 100% correct muslims? Theyre ritual dancing makes just as much sense as our Dikr. It is a form of meditation. Muhammad (pbuh) meditated himself. So did Jesus (pbuh). Many other profets as well (pbut). In fact they will recieve rewards because they are trying to get closer to god, as we do when praying or doing Dikr. Though they do have to pray. It is not a replacement for praying. What other practice do Sufis commit wrong. I dont see any. Even using drugs in their rituals, it is not haraam, because it doesnt fall under either of the two requirements listed above. It brings them closer infact, and does not harm them.

I also want to bring this big one up, that I believe in veeeeery strongly. I would please like to know what is wrong with music that does not inspire you to do bad things. How could allah forbid it. It is unavoidable, and natural. There is nothing better than hearing music. Ofcourse if it is a song about saying how god is bs and doesnt edxist, god forgive them, then it is ofcourse haraam, unless you are hearing it to see what they are saying, not for enjoyment or insight.

This is what I believe. Comments please. Don't hesitate to disagree.
IP IP Logged
seekshidayath
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3342
Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2006 at 11:41pm

 

  Assalamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu,

   Don't hesitate to disagree ------  

 "They say you must pray every rakat, even sunnah. "
 Wa athiul laha wa athiuul rasool", so we are to follow the sunnah,

They say that if you eat medicine, then you will break your fast.

 What does fasting means to you? If one is  so sick he's asked not to fast.

They say that women who dont wear hijabs will burn in hell for doing so, even if they practice and believe"

Do they really practice islam. If so Women in Qur'an are asked to wear hijabs na.

They say that kufaars wil burn in hell forever, even if they were nice people.

Its not that so called fundamental and conservative muslims say so, Its the revealed verses of Qur'an that says that kuffars will be burnt in the hell forever since they deny oneness of Allah ta'ala or  believes else other than Allah,

 Its really not their fault that they were Hindu, or Christian, or Jewish, or Athiest, unless they converted to. It was the culture and family they were raised with that put in their brains, sort of like being brainwashed but without ever having anything in the beginning. If Allah did send another religion down, hypothetically speaking, and it was really the true word of god, then would you believe in that religion? No of course not. You believe that this is the last religion. So do Christians and Jews, and others, they believe this because of what the Old and New Testament say. They dont believe there is another religion after theirs.

Qur'an says that every born-child is a muslim and later as u said he's raised either hindu or so onnnnn. As u talked of brains, these brains are to be used. Even we muslims are asked to ponder over the verses and not follow our fore fathers blindly.


Its not that Allah sent another religion down. people made there own religions like instead of following those messengers they made them God. Or either created Gods out of the creations of Allah. Its certainly the true word of God and who deny this are not --------.

So do Christians and Jews, and others, they believe this because of what the Old and New Testament say. They dont believe there is another religion after theirs
 Its mentioned in both the revealed books  about arrival of our prophet {sallal lahu alai hi wasallam}  and  were asked to follow it then how can they ever think that there religion is  the last religion.

Although those people will have to face some punishment because they are not really muslims, I dont think it will be a serious one, if they were good people and truly respected a god. At least if the are monotheistic, you must give me. Muslims will be treated the same way, but being a muslim, it acts as having more rewards than others.

Let me clear a misconception of yours, Who said that muslims will not be punished? But the difference is after there punishement is over they are then sent to jannah. Any one who prays other than Allah ta'ala is thrown in hell and there deeds are of no use then. There are many verses regarding this. Insha-allah will paste them next.  Abu Talib uncle and care taker of our prophet {sallal lahu alaihi wasallam}  was such a nice person. But did not embrace islam. Its said that he will be punished lightly.

I also want to make the point, doing anything, even drugs, even those that intoxicate, are NOT haraam, IFit does not steer your mind away from god, or if it does less damage then good, or if it is unsignificant damage, like gives you constipation or headaches or something. Remember, it applies to EVERYTHING.

For understanding of  the verses of Qur'an we need the help of Hadeees. One cannot undertsand those verses by a mere read. Every verse has its context tooo na.There are many ahadith about it, Please go through them and still if you feeel its not haraam then let us know.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
IP IP Logged
seekshidayath
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3342
Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2006 at 11:43pm

Also, why do many muslims believe that sufi people are not true or 100% correct muslims? Theyre ritual dancing makes just as much sense as our Dikr. It is a form of meditation. Muhammad (pbuh) meditated himself. So did Jesus (pbuh). Many other profets as well (pbut)

We are not to abuse any sects here.  There is no scope of percent in muslims no one is a 50 % muslim or 25. We are asked to submit ourselves completely to Allah.  Do you dance while Dhikr?. We are asked to follow the sunnah of our Prophet {sallal lahu alai hi wa sallam}  and our Prophet never  did such MEDITATION There is no scope for innovations in a true religion.

These are the ways which are 2 be followed to get closer to Allah

"The reasons which cause mahabbah (love) of Allaah to develop, are ten:
 

First: Reciting the Qur'aan, reflecting and understanding its meaning and its intent.

Second: Drawing closer to Allaah – the Most High – through optional deeds, after fulfilling the obligatory duties.

Third: Being continuous in the dhikr (remembrance) of Allaah, with the tongue, the heart and the limbs – under all circumstances. The more continuant the dhikr, the more muhabbah develops and intensifies.

Fourth: Giving precedence to what Allaah loves over personal loves, when being overcome by desires.

Fifth: Contemplating and deliberating over the Names and Attributes of Allaah.

Sixth: Recognizing and remembering the favors and bounties of Allaah – both manifest and hidden.

Seventh: To be humble and submissive before Allaah – and this is the greatest matter.

Eighth: To be in seclusion reciting the Qur'aan, during that time in which Allaah descends to the lowest heaven (which is the last third of every night), finishing this recitation with seeking Allaah's forgiveness and repenting to Him.

Ninth: To sit in the gatherings of the true and sincere lovers of Allaah, reaping the fruits of their speech, and not to speak except if there is benefit in it and that you know that such talk will increase you in goodness and that it will benefit others as well.

Tenth: To stay clear of all those causes which distances the heart from Allaah – the Mighty and Majestic.

So these are the ten reasons which cause the person to develop true love for Allaah and to reach the rank of al-muhabbah, by which he reaches his Beloved.


Regarding music insha-allah will tell you next . Sorry for being straight forward But the need of the hour is to  read, ponder and follow the verses of the qur'an and the authentic hadith. Its our forgotten task of most of the muslims  of dawah. May Allah bestow hidaya'th for us to follow the right path. Ameen Insha-allah we have many other members with more knowledge  who would add up to this.

Please take this as a discussion not a debate.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
IP IP Logged
seekshidayath
Female Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3342
Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2006 at 8:02am

 

To start up with as its said earlier that we need to go thru a context  of the verse and most of the verses are well understood by the  reference of the authentic hadith. Coming to the topic here regarding Alcohol and the intoxicants, there are three verses revealed.

Hazrat Umar raziallah ta'ala anha prayed Allah  in regarding it. So this verse of surah Al-Baqarah had been revealed. "They ask you {O Muhammad sallal lahu alai hi wasallam} concerning alcoholic drink and gambling  Say : In them is a great sin and some benefits for men  but the sin of them is greater than their benefit " And they ask u what they ought to spend-----". Our prophet sallal lahu alaihi wasallam recited this verse  to haz Umar raziallah ta'ala anha. It was not clear to him. So he prayed "OAllah make this verse more clear to us".

It was then the verse of surah Nisa 43 was revealed :" O you who believe! Approach not As-Salat when you are in a drunken state until you know the meaning of what you utter". Hazrat Umar was again called and it was recited. But still it was unclear  and again did he pray  "OAllah make this verse more clear to us". Its said that after this verse was revealed during the time of prayers any of the sahabas would stand and say loudly ,"Approach not if in a drunken state" as alcohol was not declared haraam then.

It was the third time that verse of surah Maidah , was revealed , ""O you who believe! intoxicants {all kinds of alcoholic  drinks} and gambling, and Al-Ansab and Al-Azam  {arrows for seeking luck or decision} are an abonimation of shaitan's handi work. So Avoid {strictly} that {abomination}   in order that you may be successful" - verse- 90  Al-Maidah

"satan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants {alcoholic drinks} and gambling and hinder you from remmebrance of Allah and from As-Salat {the prayer} So will you not abstain ?"- 91

Hazrat Umar raziallah ta'ala anhu was called  again and the verse was recited. This verse ends with "Fahal anthum munthaqoon  " So will you not abstain? and Hazrat Umar replied "Intehaina intehaina" we abstain ,abstain'

Here two things are to benoted : Its said that its handi work of  shaitan   Is it right to follow shaitan? and the verse ended strictly "Will you not abstain?" Its like a warning given.  Inorder to be successful we are asked to abstain from it.

Right now i remember one hadith " Narrated Abu Aamir or Abu malik Ashari that he heard Prophet sallal lahu alai hi wasallam saying "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcohol and use of musical instruments as lawful and from them there will be some who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with there sheep and ask for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow" Allah will destroy them during the night and will let mountain fall on them and He will transform the rest of them into  monkeys and pigs and they will remain till the day of Resurrection" Sahih Bukhari vol-7 494B

 

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
IP IP Logged
ZubairH
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 11 February 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Quote ZubairH Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2006 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

 


  Assalamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu,


   Don't hesitate to disagree ------  


 "They say you must pray every rakat, even sunnah. " Wa athiul laha wa athiuul rasool", so we are to follow the sunnah,


They say that if you eat medicine, then you will break your fast.


 What does fasting means to you? If one is  so sick he's asked not to fast.


They say that women who dont wear hijabs will burn in hell for doing so, even if they practice and believe"


Do they really practice islam. If so Women in Qur'an are asked to wear hijabs na.


They say that kufaars wil burn in hell forever, even if they were nice people.


Its not that so called fundamental and conservative muslims say so, Its the revealed verses of Qur'an that says that kuffars will be burnt in the hell forever since they deny oneness of Allah ta'ala or  believes else other than Allah,


 Its really not their fault that they were Hindu, or Christian, or Jewish, or Athiest, unless they converted to. It was the culture and family they were raised with that put in their brains, sort of like being brainwashed but without ever having anything in the beginning. If Allah did send another religion down, hypothetically speaking, and it was really the true word of god, then would you believe in that religion? No of course not. You believe that this is the last religion. So do Christians and Jews, and others, they believe this because of what the Old and New Testament say. They dont believe there is another religion after theirs.


Qur'an says that every born-child is a muslim and later as u said he's raised either hindu or so onnnnn. As u talked of brains, these brains are to be used. Even we muslims are asked to ponder over the verses and not follow our fore fathers blindly.


Its not that Allah sent another religion down. people made there own religions like instead of following those messengers they made them God. Or either created Gods out of the creations of Allah. Its certainly the true word of God and who deny this are not --------.


So do Christians and Jews, and others, they believe this because of what the Old and New Testament say. They dont believe there is another religion after theirs Its mentioned in both the revealed books  about arrival of our prophet {sallal lahu alai hi wasallam}  and  were asked to follow it then how can they ever think that there religion is  the last religion.


Although those people will have to face some punishment because they are not really muslims, I dont think it will be a serious one, if they were good people and truly respected a god. At least if the are monotheistic, you must give me. Muslims will be treated the same way, but being a muslim, it acts as having more rewards than others.


Let me clear a misconception of yours, Who said that muslims will not be punished? But the difference is after there punishement is over they are then sent to jannah. Any one who prays other than Allah ta'ala is thrown in hell and there deeds are of no use then. There are many verses regarding this. Insha-allah will paste them next.  Abu Talib uncle and care taker of our prophet {sallal lahu alaihi wasallam}  was such a nice person. But did not embrace islam. Its said that he will be punished lightly.


I also want to make the point, doing anything, even drugs, even those that intoxicate, are NOT haraam, IFit does not steer your mind away from god, or if it does less damage then good, or if it is unsignificant damage, like gives you constipation or headaches or something. Remember, it applies to EVERYTHING.


For understanding of  the verses of Qur'an we need the help of Hadeees. One cannot undertsand those verses by a mere read. Every verse has its context tooo na.There are many ahadith about it, Please go through them and still if you feeel its not haraam then let us know.






Yes, but how is dancing haraam? It doesnt say its forbidden in the koran. And why is music haraam? Seriously, besides "bad" music which I explained, what is the problem?

My point is, so what if Muhammad (pbuh) didnt do these types of meditations. That doesnt mean we can't do them. It's just another way of doing it. What do you mean when you said,"Do we dance when doing dikr?" So what? It is just another way.

Just another thing, it is known, as a fact, that the prophet pbuh enjoyed singing very much. How is this different in any way from music except for the fact that it has words with it, sometimes not even? The voice is one of the most popular instruments, you cannot deny that this is music. What about whistling? Prophet muhammad indeed was very fond of music.
IP IP Logged
ZubairH
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 11 February 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Quote ZubairH Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2006 at 5:12pm
Also, I honestly do not think that at least Christians nor Jews will burn in hell forever at the least. You said that they should use their brains. How can they do so without being ever taught to use them in such a way? Most people can't learn to use their brains like this by themselves, unless they use marijuana. Yes I said it. Marijuana helps people understand better. Marijuana is a mental stimulant. Also marijuana does not make you do anything that is considered a sin, like alcohol can do sometimes. DO NOT tell me intoxicants are haraam, because alcohol was replaced immediately by other intoxicants such as marijauna and other intoxicating teas. It is even suggested that Muhammad pbuh used marijuana himself, while meditating.
IP IP Logged
ZEA J
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 June 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 224
Quote ZEA  J Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2006 at 10:37pm

Originally posted by ZubairH

 

Just another thing, it is known, as a fact, that the prophet pbuh enjoyed singing very much.

Where did you get that "fact" from, Which hadith or ayat?

"You will never attain piety and righteousness,(and eventually paradise)until you
spend of that which you love."(Al-Imran:92)
IP IP Logged
air_one
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 23 September 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 35
Quote air_one Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2006 at 1:49am
Originally posted by ZubairH

It is even suggested that Muhammad pbuh used marijuana himself, while meditating.


Where did you get this idea from?
IP IP Logged
Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com