Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Basics of Islam
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Basics of Islam
Message Icon Topic: Does Islam Look bad in Polygamy? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 3
Author Message
UmmTaaha
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2006
Location: Japan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 159
Quote UmmTaaha Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2006 at 11:44pm

Angela thank you for your input:

Originally posted by Angela

In a way, the trend of non married and gay couples in this country are changing the laws and making it easier on the unregistered plural wives of men.  But, is that really a benefit you want to partake of?  I would rather a Muslim family challenge and change the law, thus continuing to encourage lawful marriage and cohabitation.

Its easier to challenge the immorality of fornication and adultery if you are fighting to preserve the legal marriage as a tenet of society.

I know there are "Muslim personal laws"  which can be applied on muslims in certian areas. These laws can easily accomodate issues like marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance etc. There are countries which have this system, and I hope muslims in the west think about it as well.

On a side note, I never said polygamy is a requirement in Islam. It is a permission only. However one shld understand that if something has been made permissible by the divine, it cannot be treated with a frown, disgust, intolerance etc  - which was how the post sounded - the original one to which i had posted my objection in this thread.

Polygamy is not always a need, and most men even in Islam maintain one wife only.

 



Edited by UmmTaaha
IP IP Logged
najamsahar
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 21 June 2006
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 151
Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2006 at 1:47am

Polygamy is Islam is not obligatory. There are definite reasons why polygamy was permitted and the conditions that should be maintained in which a polygynous relationship can thrive to the benefit of the spouses involved.

The Quran states justice between the wives. This is material justice. Equal distribution of time and wealth and other resources. In broader terms, I would also include both having the similar legal status.

The Quran also exhorts in Surah Nisa, 4:3, Marry one or more, but if you fear that you wont be able to do justice, then only one. This is nearer to preventing you to do injustice.

The plurality of marriage is made Halal in Islam due to many reasons. It is primarily to prevent men from doing Haram. A man may be tempted towards another woman and in case his wife is accepting towards her and they wish to remain married (for kids, etc) he can marry this other woman instead of having a haram relationship again avoiding many problems of illiegal children.

There may be women in the society that have no prospects of marriage or the ratio of men is adverse. Being a second wife gives her respect and protection in the society. If she were single, she would have to take help from others and as scholars agree,taking help from nonmahram men, puts women at risk of exploitation.

In the west However, if we take a look at people who are in a polygamous relationship, its very distressing to see that that they taking something from Islam because it is Sunnah but the way of doing it is totally un-islamic.

I read a post on this forum, in which a lady has described how she met her husband on chat and then they got married (civil and not islamic wedding). the husband did not tell his wife about it and was sneaking out to meet her. To the extent that everyone including his son knew that this woman is his wife except the first wife.

To me as a muslim and any moral person anywhere in the world, the above kind of behaviour is unethical and unacceptable.  In blunt words, I would call it cheating on the first wife. The basic foundatuon of marriage is threatened by this behaviour.

UmmTaaha, you are speaking about the society, these stories are dime a dozen, all under the banner of islam,quran and sunnah. And this is what is giving the religion a bad name.

We cannot be so wishful as to seperate what we do from what Islam is.

We are all representatives of the Quran. What we need to root out is the un-islamic and unethical practices of muslims (while they fool themselves that they are following the Sunnah)

As everyone, I know of polygamous marriages in which the dignity of all the spouses and their children is fully maintained. This is the kind of marriage that reflects the true beauty of Islam and it is within everyones who wishes to reach. People take the way of deception and subterfuge because the reasons that want to marry are questionable.

Eg: My wife cannot have kids, ( so I want to be a half time dad to wahtever kids we have)

It is only in a small percentage of  polygynous marriages in the west that the rights of one the wives is not compromised.

The disgust and intolerance that you mention come from this background.

As an end note, in countries where gay marriage is banned, it is not allowed under any circumstance. The same goes for polygynous marriage, if it is not allowed, it simply isnt. To change a law (as the homosexuals have done), it needs a concerted effort and time.

NS

IP IP Logged
UmmTaaha
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2006
Location: Japan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 159
Quote UmmTaaha Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2006 at 8:05pm

Thank you for your input, NS.

I agree with all of what you have said above. I did not have any clash with the above facts you have listed.

Originally posted by Najamsahar

UmmTaaha, you are speaking about the society, these stories are dime a dozen, all under the banner of islam, quran and sunnah. And this is what is giving the religion a bad name.

We cannot be so wishful as to seperate what we do from what Islam is.

It all depends on how we mention and discuss the problems of our society. Where denying the problems would be siding with falsehood, approaching  the sunnah itself with negetivity is not the best way of solving problems.

We may discuss with congineality, giving due recognition and respect to the sunnahs in Islam. Because sunnahs are not merely examples. And permissibilities from Allah are blessings.

Problems come to a dead end, when we go at two separate exteems.

The requirement for second marriage does not have to be a woman  not having a mahram, and her kids being orphans. These are merely good reasons, and a way to make things halal - to protect a woman's honor etc. However a man is allowed to marry even if he is attracted to her. (of course keeping all the conditions for second marriage).  

Another thing I have seen people arguing about is that a husband should be loving all his wives equally. This is not correct. He is not supposed to nor can he do this. Even the prophet(saw) was not obliged to do this.

Coming to the west, I dont think if a man sincerely approaches a scholar to find out what he must be doing, he will be adviced in favor of polygamy. I do not deny this, nor am I unaware of this.

Even in countries where polygamy is allowed, if one is unable to afford two homes financially, he should not give way to his desires in marriage. So much so, that Islam says, if a man does not have the means to marry even the first time, he should wait, and during those days, years ... he should fast.

It is easy to be intolerant towards someone who is breaking a law, but let us make sure this intolerance is not stemming from the need to prove our ownselves.  Muslims have come under a microscopic eye of everyone in the west, and so has Islam. However we do not have to go overboard pleasing the societies we are living in, to prove our sincerity or loyalty as citizens.  If we have our priorities straight, our concepts of Islam well grounded, there is literally no need to have attitudes against fellow muslims such as sending blanket statements. 

We were speaking of a society where literally haram actions have been given licenses.  How much energy will any non-muslim westerner spend in speaking against these, or calling to attention the civic duty of people involved?  However when it is about muslims, standards are different. We should not be naive enough to accept these double standards, nor should we be naive enough to join them to strengthen their voices.

There is a lot muslims in the west must be doing. First and foremost of that should be organizing themselves - not having 5+ different groups in one mosque. One should do dawah among the ummah, and UNITE the muslims on the foundations of Quran and Sunnah. This we cannot do if we are simply intolerant towards muslims. We need to be intolerant towards their wrong actions, and making efforts - no matter how small they are - rectifying the society of these blemishes.

It is taught in a hadith that a muslim should help his brother when he is doing good and help him when he is doing wrong. - the explainiantion of which is help the first brother by aiding him in doing good, and helping the second is to check him, and try to bring him to the straigh path.

 

IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2006 at 8:06am

UmmTaaha,

You said, We should not be naive enough to accept these double standards, nor should we be naive enough to join them to strengthen their voices.

Its not a double standard when its applied to all.  There are other religions that teach polygamy as a natural and moral act.  However, the law is the law.  It doesn't matter if your Mormon or Muslim.  The anti-polygamy laws were in place long before Muslims came to the US in force.  They were passed as part of the battle against my people. 

But, if a Muslim wants to live in the West then they must accept the law or work to change it.  If they disrespect the laws of the land and make no attempt to change it, then they simply don't have the right to be here.  Democracy is a full contact sport that requires participation.  You can't simply ignore the law and do what you want.

That is what the problem is with polygamists in this country.  They have no respect for the law and refuse to take legal channels to correct the law.  Why?  Because those that are unwilling to challenge the law are usually not in these relationships for moral purposes. 

In the end, if Muslim brother would rather have multiple wives and doesn't feel the need to challenge the laws that forbid it, then he needs to move to a country where its legal.

IP IP Logged
UmmTaaha
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2006
Location: Japan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 159
Quote UmmTaaha Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2006 at 5:44pm

I said:

We were speaking of a society where literally haram actions have been given licensesHow much energy will any non-muslim westerner spend in speaking against these, or calling to attention the civic duty of people involved? 

It is a double standard if you do speak against polygamy but not against the haram activities ie. the illegal sexual activities like homosexuality, adultary and fornication. 

Where is the law that would jail such kind of ppl, or deport them or exile them?  

IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2006 at 8:03am

But, UmmTaaha,

The US is a secular society with secular laws.  You call Illegal sexual activities of homosexuality, adultery and fornication because of your religion, but in the US, religion has nothing to do with it.  People have a right to believe what they want here.  Therefore, if you want to practice a specific ideal, you have to challenge the courts based on the idea that it restricts your belief. 

I certainly don't believe in homosexuality, adultery or fornication.  However, I stop dead at the idea of forcing my beliefs on others and imposing laws that draw stoning and death to sinners. 

This is a country of many faiths, you can complain about the haram practices being given license here.  But in the end, if that's how you feel, then don't live here.  I see you have Japan listed as your home country.  I could point out a few things about Japanese culture and I'm pretty sure that polygamy is illegal there.

A non-muslim westerner is going to argue on their beliefs.  In the US, there is a movement to ban all marriages that are not between one woman and one man. This would prevent homosexuals from marrying, but it would reinforce the 125 year old bans on plural marriage.  Fornication and adultery are personal sins and will be punished by the creator, but you cannot regulate morality based on religious law in a secular government. 

As for where is the law, in Texas there was a sodomy law that gave jail time, its been overturned based on personal freedom.  In Pennsylvania no more than 5 unmarried women can live together in a home because it becomes a brothel.  There are laws, but they aren't enforced because of personal choice and belief.  If you come here as an immigrant you are bound to our laws, end of argument.  If you don't agree with the laws, then don't come here, go somewhere else.  If you are born here, then you are bound to live the laws just the same, no different.  The only difference is one came here by choice and if he breaks the law, he can be sent home.  He or she broke their agreement to obey the law as part of their terms of citizenship.  The other faces jail time if they break the law.

If a Mormon or Muslim practices polygamy in this country, they understand that they are doing so against the law and must accept that there will be consequences if they are discovered and prosecuted.  They must understand that for all the illegal/spiritual wives and legally illegitimate children that there are no protections under the law.  The if the second wife needs assistance from the government, the US can garnish the mans wages in child support with no respect for his first wife and their situation.  If the husband dies, the first wife becomes sole inheritor with her children.  Lastly, all the children could suffer if the father is arrested, fined and jailed and the spouses as well.

So, yes, there are things that are permissible in this society that are ugly and wrong, but you cannot force your beliefs on the entire 300 million people, therefore, you either deal with it and teach your kids the correct way, or you leave.  But, if you break the law, even if your beliefs say its okay, then you become a criminal in society. 

For example, in the US, if a Shariah Court convicted an adulteress and sentenced her to death by stoning....they would all become murderers and be charged as such.  So, do you expect them to risk their families and communities by following that act?  Of course not.  So, why expect men to engage in an allowable but not required act that can only bring misery to the family under the law?

In the end, I can't say this enough....If Muslims or Mormons want to practice polygamy, they must FIRST challenge the law, then they can practice polygamy openly and the way it should be done, in love, not secrecy.

IP IP Logged
UmmTaaha
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2006
Location: Japan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 159
Quote UmmTaaha Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2006 at 7:21pm

Originally posted by Angela

If you come here as an immigrant you are bound to our laws, end of argument.  If you don't agree with the laws, then don't come here, go somewhere else. 

Angela, I see an overstress on abiding by the laws in all your posts. This, despite the fact that nobody has suggested muslims in your country shld be breaking them. I don't really understand your concern to this extent.

My concern to begin with were two, both of which were to do with muslims treating their religion and fellow muslims.  If you thought my opener was a suggestion for muslim to break US laws, your were only presuming things.

Secondly I am presuming the second person pronoun "YOU" in your message is not for me, rather for a general audiance. Coz, if you were addressing me, and you have said it at least three times in this post and some more times in others, that muslims shld either leave US, or not go there - I do not plan to live in US for many reasons and they are all religious. So thank you for the caution, but I personally don't need any.

Originally posted by Angela

If a Mormon or Muslim practices polygamy in this country, they understand that they are doing so against the law and must accept that there will be consequences if they are discovered and prosecuted.  They must understand that for all the illegal/spiritual wives and legally illegitimate children that there are no protections under the law.  The if the second wife needs assistance from the government, the US can garnish the mans wages in child support with no respect for his first wife and their situation.  If the husband dies, the first wife becomes sole inheritor with her children.  Lastly, all the children could suffer if the father is arrested, fined and jailed and the spouses as well.

So, yes, there are things that are permissible in this society that are ugly and wrong, but you cannot force your beliefs on the entire 300 million people, therefore, you either deal with it and teach your kids the correct way, or you leave.  But, if you break the law, even if your beliefs say its okay, then you become a criminal in society. 

If a muslim is a US citizen he/she is islamically bound by the her laws as long as those do not command this person to go against the commands of Allah. Polygamy is not a command of Allah, it is only a permissibility, thus muslims in the US must not circumvent the laws which enforce monogamy.   My argument with you was not this rather slightly different.

I do learn a few important things from your discussion.

The concern you bring regarding polygamy practised in US is very interesting. 

All what I see in your posts is DO NOT BREAK THE LAW. This is not at all a wrong attitude, however, when it comes to why one should not break them, the answer does not reflect a real responsibility.

The law is a law, you said that, and I understand, however, what is the law for? Is it for people not to break, ie to serve?

Or is it to protect people in various ways?

You see, my entire argument with you was an attitude towards the law and not the law itself. Please make a note of this.

Let us forget about the religion for a while and consider two hypothetical situations:

We have a Mr. A who is a muslim, US citizen, and a Mr. B. who is a non-muslim US citizen. They are both married, and have children.

Mr. A plans to get married a second time, and he does this secretly- he does not register his marrige, and understands the jeopardy he has put his second family into.

Mr. B on the other hand is interested in a lady, he does not marry her, rather only have a relationship with her.  Even they have children through this relationship.

Now, you tell me, if Mr. B dies, will the lady living with him or her kids get any share in his inheritance?

Will the lady living with Mr. B have a better status than the one with Mr. A, if either of them were to die? Keeping in regard that Mrs A. keeps her marriage a secret from the state.

The difference between Mr A  and Mr. B is that Mr A. has broken US state laws, while Mr. B has not. However the people involved in both these relationships have much to lose. So the consequences of the actions of both men hurt people. Neverthless, you would mind the actions of Mr. A, but not Mr. B (or so I read through your posts - correct me if I am wrong).

This was strange to obeserve in the first place - given the sincerity of your posts. Laws should not be there merely to be upheld, otherwise they become sekeletons governing the society, asking it to serve them. They (the laws) should also be able to prevent people from getting hurt.  However in this argument, we see that the people are  being considered as potentials to receive hurt only if they break a law - if in a similar situation, when there are no laws broken, the potentials of people getting hurt is only recognised as "personal choices". - and please note here, I have not weighed the two on the basis of religion, I have only compared the legal status of the two respective families.

Is this a suggestion to challenge the law? - I don't know - It is rather an observation of your attitudes before anything else. 

You said you do not believe in adultery, fornication and homosexuality. Is this a matter of personal belief only? For those who do believe in it cause people to suffer through their actions. When there are others suffering because of us, the matter does not remain that of personal belief only.  It becomes a social problem.

Originally posted by angela

A non-muslim westerner is going to argue on their beliefs. 

When a man enters into an extra marital affair, he jeopardizes his marriage and brings bad consequences on his family. Family is personal, but is also a social unit. How can one have only personal beliefs regarding a social unit?

This is the difference between your thinking and mine.

 

 



Edited by UmmTaaha
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 3
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com