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Daniel Dworsky
 
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Quote Daniel Dworsky Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 10:07pm
Radcliff?

just kidding
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Hanan
 
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Quote Hanan Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 10:49pm

.



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Sawtul Khilafah
 
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Quote Sawtul Khilafah Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 5:01am

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

Originally posted by Angela

 Why would anyone want protected from being persecuted, tortured and oppressed?   

Then what is the UN doing sending troops to Afghanistan to murder and persecute people.

Why did the UN place sanctions on Afghanistan before the war when people were dying out of poverty ? 

The UN does not care about human life and freedom, they only want to inforce their ideology and philosophy. But in order to spread their propaganda they try to use beautiful words like "freedom, liberty, peace", when in reality they spread corruption, war and oppression.

Some Bosnian civilians were once fooled by the UN, but they payed a big price for it. They came to the UN asking for help and protection, but the UN handed them over to the Serbs to be massacared. Most of these civilians were women and children, and they were brutally massacred by the Serbs, thanks to UN's promise of "protection and peace".

Originally posted by Angela

Not every man beat his wife under the Taliban, many of them were drug off to fight for the Taliban and if they refused they were killed.

 

Infact it is the allies of the UN and the US, the "freedom loving" Northern Alliance who are the real drugs addicts. Infact, many of the military leaders of the Northern alliance are drugs Lords. Even Hamid Karzais brother is now known to be in the drug business. The previous leader of the Northern Alliance, Ahmad Shah Masood is also known to have made money by selling drugs.

Since the invasion of Afghanistan, the production of illegal drugs has at least treppled, and even according to the UN itself it has broken the record !!!!

Also you claim that anyone who refused to fight for the Taliban was killed. What do you base this on ? Do you have a source for this or is this just another one of your lies and false accusations.

Intrestingly, the Bible refers to the "red Dragon" (whom Christians believe to be Satan) as "the accuser of our brethren" (read Revelation 12).

Originally posted by Angela

  I remember an article by a women's group that was discussing the inability of many of these women to get even healthcare because there were few women doctors and they couldn't go to male doctors. 

Im happy you admit that there were female doctors in Afghanistan. Yes there werent many, but maybe if the UN and the US ceased bully the Taliban and helping in the spread of poverty and chaos, there may have been more places for females to educate.

Also, as far as I know Afghan women did go to male doctors. This is the first time Im hearing this accusation.

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 9:36am

First off, the UN didn't go this to Afghanistan.  The USSR and the USA did.  Afghanistan was trapped between two warring superpowers.  The UN didn't declare war on Afghanistan, the US did. 

As for the Bosnians, I would love someday to introduce you to a man who is a dear friend of my husbands.  He'll tell you about the UN and Bosnia.  He nearly died several times protecting Bosnia civilians.  But, more so, he can tell you the true horror of the massacres.  He's the poor guy who had to crawl through the bodies and disable the booby traps the Serbs left the UN troops when they were trying to give these people decent burials.  He'll also describe to you in detail the nightmares he still has at the woman and her infant the latter not a mark on her, thrown into the pit with her murdered mother alive.  The Bosnian Massacre is not the fault of the UN. 

As for the men who refused to fight being killed by the Taliban.  Talk to Sister Jenni here on the site.  She's married to a man from Pakistan.  There is a woman in her Mosque who had this very thing happen to her husband.  She had to flee with her small ones and not all of them survived.  Unless you want to call a Muslim sister a liar, too.

 

here's a bit on the Taliban and women.

 

Some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afghanistan


 

The following list offers only an abbreviated glimpse of the hellish lives Afghan women are forced to lead under the Taliban, and can not begin to reflect the depth of female deprivations and sufferings. Taliban treat women worse than they treat animals. In fact, even as Taliban declare the keeping of caged birds and animals illegal, they imprison Afghan women within the four walls of their own houses. Women have no importance in Taliban eyes unless they are occupied producing children, satisfying male sexual needs or attending to the drudgery of daily housework. Jehadi fundamentalists such as Gulbaddin, Rabbani, Masood, Sayyaf, Khalili, Akbari, Mazari and their co-criminal Dostum have committed the most treacherous and filthy crimes against Afghan women. And as more areas come under Taliban control, even if the number of rapes and murders perpetrated against women falls, Taliban restrictions --comparable to those from the middle ages-- will continue to kill the spirit of our people while depriving them of a humane existence. We consider Taliban more treacherous and ignorant than Jehadis. According to our people, "Jehadis were killing us with guns and swords but Taliban are killing us with cotton."


 

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education".

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

And so on...

 

http://www.rawa.org



Edited by Angela
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Sawtul Khilafah
 
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Quote Sawtul Khilafah Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Angela

First off, the UN didn't go this to Afghanistan.  The USSR and the USA did.  Afghanistan was trapped between two warring superpowers.  The UN didn't declare war on Afghanistan, the US did. 

First of all the UN was made by the US Government in the firts place, and secondly the UN DID send troops to Afghanistan and the UN did encourage chaos and sanctions in Afghanistan when the Taliban were incharge.

Originally posted by Angela

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home...

 Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

Love the contradiction.

Originally posted by Angela

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

This was clearly explained by the Taliban numerous times. It was because Afghanistan was filled with rapists (the same guys who joined the Northern Alliance) so it was infact for the women's own protection. This was also not something that the Taliban introduced for the first time, as in Afghan culture this has always been the case.

 

Originally posted by Angela

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

As far as I know, most Afghan women wore bright blue ...

Originally posted by Angela

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

????

 

 

Originally posted by Angela

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

This is for both men and women so... ??

Originally posted by Angela

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

As far as I know, most Afghan women wore bright blue ...

Originally posted by Angela

 

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

Yeah those guys even had seperate toilets for males and females!!!!!!!!

 



Edited by Sawtul Khilafah
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 11:28am

Amazing how you had to repeat yourself over and over.  Do you believe it yet?

Please, provide your proofs.  I posted this from an Afghani women's site.  I could post more if you like.  Oh, but you'd rather believe the lies of the men who plunged an entire group of the Ummah into utter darkness.

The Plight of the Muslim Women of Afghanistan under the Taliban
Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.

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The four thumbnail photos above are taken from a video filmed using a hidden camera in Kabul on August 26, 2001 by RAWA, an all-female Afghan underground movement. It shows two Taliban from the department of Amro bil mahroof (Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, Taliban religious police) beating a woman because she dared to remove her burqa in public.

"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."
From the last sermon of Prophet Mohammed

"None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully".
Prophet Mohammed (At-Tirmithy).

According to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, the Prophet is reported to have said:

If a daughter is born to a person and he brings her up, gives her a good education and trains her in the arts of life, I shall myself stand between him and hell-fire.
(Kanz al-Ummal).
quoted in Women in Islam by M. Mazheruddin Siddiqi

How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.
(Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Tahrat).

A person who has a female slave in charge and takes steps to give her a sound education and trains her in arts and culture, and then frees her and marries her, he will be doubly rewarded.
(Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Nikah).

Some Muslim callers preach a false and ugly version of Islam and then complain because people do not accept it.  I think that those ignorant preachers should be imprisoned or lashed because they divert people from the way of Allah and the truth that Muhammad, the final Messenger, declared.
Sheikh Muhammad Al-Ghazaly.

Muslims who advance conservative views on female affairs...are normally very literal in their understanding of texts; but they tendentiously opt for an understanding that suits their prejudice.
Dr Hassan Al-Turabi

Women have clearly defined rights in Islam.  These have been set out in the Quran and Sunnah and also have been made explicit by scholars such as Dr Hassan Al-Turabi of Sudan in his seminal 1973 pamphlet, On the Position of Women in Islam and in Islamic Society and by the famous English convert to Islam and Quran translator, Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall. Yet much as Pickthall lamented and condemned the non-Islamic treatment and "pitiful condition of Muslim womanhood"  in India as long ago as 1925 in his lecture The Relation of the Sexes, today in 2001 we find the Muslim women of Afghanistan being treated much worse by the Taleban regime, who serve up a grotesque caricature of Islam and  bring the good name of our beloved religion into such disrepute.

Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.  Please find below links to web pages and sites detailing the plight of the Muslim women of Afghanistan

http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm

http://www.hazara.net/taliban/revocation_of_rights/revocatio n_of_rights.html

http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/Afghan_report.ht ml

http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm

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Sawtul Khilafah
 
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Quote Sawtul Khilafah Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 11:59am

Great logic.

Make an accusation, then instead of proving the accusation, just explain "why it's wrong".

The Taliban never forbade education for women, but you simply put forward the accusation, then try to explain why it's wrong to prevent women from education!!!

Also, you claim that some websites on the internet are "proof". As if you dont know about something called "PROPAGANDA".

 

Just look at the pictures you posted. This is precisely what propaganda is. Show a picture of a girl crying, (as if no other girl in the world cries) simply to make it all look emotional.

This is what deception is all about, and this is precisely how propaganda works.

It's also amazing how Ive seen this one picture of some guy in Afghanistan hitting a woman over and over and over and over again. They keep showing the exact same footage on every channel on TV and Sky, every website and any other source who want to spread anti-Taliban propaganda.

As if this one guy is the only man living in Afghanistan!

The Hadith you quote have absolutely nothing to do with letting women go around naked. Infact, we cant respect women if they dont respect themselves. So how are we to respect a girl who shows half her body and shape, hoping to attract young men so she can fulfill her own sick desires.

Neither can a woman respect a stranger who looks at her luftfully or tries to touch her. So if we want men and women to respect eachother, then they must follow certain morals and laws, or else we might as well live in a jungle.

You also quote a deceptive sentece:
"Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men."

This is like saying "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of a child to his/her mother."

And hence, the child stops listening to his/her mother using this sentence, and does whatever he wants.

This is also like a criminal saying: "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submuission of a man to the will of Governemnt" and then he goes and commits crimes and breaks the law, using the above sentence as an excuse.

Well God clearly states in the Quran that Man is the head of family, so the sentence you wrote contradicts itself!!!

Infact, even the Bible states that women are not even allowed to speak up in Church and numerous other similair things.

 

 

Oh, and that picture of the old woman is just hilarious. What does that supposed to mean? That she is upset she cant show off her body ??? These guys just take pictures of sad looking Afghans and then use them as propaganda, when in reality they may have absolutely nothing to do with what is being propagated.

 

Here's my propaganda:

People in the west want Islamic Caliphate

 

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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2006 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

The Taliban never forbade education for women, but you simply put forward the accusation, then try to explain why it's wrong to prevent women from education!!!

This is documented by both Afghani and Muslim women's groups around the world.  Want to call them liars again.

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

Also, you claim that some websites on the internet are "proof". As if you dont know about something called "PROPAGANDA".

Just look at the pictures you posted. This is precisely what propaganda is. Show a picture of a girl crying, (as if no other girl in the world cries) simply to make it all look emotional.

This is what deception is all about, and this is precisely how propaganda works.

So, anything that shows women in misery is propaganda, but there never seems to be any videos available to disprove them.  Please, show me pictures of women under the Taliban smiling and enjoying themselves, their children and their faith. (Here's a hint...you won't be able to)

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

It's also amazing how Ive seen this one picture of some guy in Afghanistan hitting a woman over and over and over and over again. They keep showing the exact same footage on every channel on TV and Sky, every website and any other source who want to spread anti-Taliban propaganda.

As if this one guy is the only man living in Afghanistan!

Never said that was every man in Afghanistan.  But, what faced the women when they left the house?  What about the women who were widows and had no mehram to escort them?  Are they to be abandoned by society because the law says they cannot have a job outside the home?  In a poverty stricken country with no welfare system, this dooms the woman to starvation and begging.  It robs her dignity to have to go into the street (risking either being beaten by the authorities, accused of prostitution or being raped) to have to beg for handouts? You really are heartless.

 

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

The Hadith you quote have absolutely nothing to do with letting women go around naked. Infact, we cant respect women if they dont respect themselves. So how are we to respect a girl who shows half her body and shape, hoping to attract young men so she can fulfill her own sick desires.

Neither can a woman respect a stranger who looks at her luftfully or tries to touch her. So if we want men and women to respect eachother, then they must follow certain morals and laws, or else we might as well live in a jungle.

Why is everything about sex and nakedness with you?  You're obsessed.  Okay, here's an experiment.  Put on a Burqah and try to walk around your house.  Get some needlework mesh and a sheet.  Try telling me that this is modesty.  Now, go to the local masjid and see what the sisters are wearing.  You can see their eyes for a reason.  God would never make it harder on a woman than necessary.  Were not talking legs and breasts here.  We are talking being able to see that car barreling down on you or that hole in front of you so you don't twist an ankle.

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

You also quote a deceptive sentece:
"Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men."

This is like saying "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of a child to his/her mother."

And hence, the child stops listening to his/her mother using this sentence, and does whatever he wants.

This is also like a criminal saying: "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submuission of a man to the will of Governemnt" and then he goes and commits crimes and breaks the law, using the above sentence as an excuse.

Well God clearly states in the Quran that Man is the head of family, so the sentence you wrote contradicts itself!!!

Infact, even the Bible states that women are not even allowed to speak up in Church and numerous other similair things.

The Man being the head of the household does not make him a slave master.  We are only to bow to God and submit to him.  You saying that a woman should submit to the man makes him superior.  A parent is superior to a child, that is why they must submit.  But men are not superior to women.  They are the protectors and maintainers not the masters.  There is only one master, God.  Ever heard the statement that no man can have two masters.  Its the same for a woman.

 

 

Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

Oh, and that picture of the old woman is just hilarious. What does that supposed to mean? That she is upset she cant show off her body ??? These guys just take pictures of sad looking Afghans and then use them as propaganda, when in reality they may have absolutely nothing to do with what is being propagated.

Maybe she's upset because she's in danger, poverty or has lost someone special.  You have this obsession where you think that equality means nakedness.  I really wonder about you at certain points.  Why does the idea of women being out of the house and going to school mean nudity to you?   Why does the total obliteration of a woman under a burqah mean chasity to you?  Millions and millions of Muslim women wear jilbabs, abaya and hijab and are considered modestly dressed.  Why is forcing women into burqahs and making them paint their windows black only seen in areas that were controlled by the Taliban?   The websites I used were very specific.  They were muslim websites or respected impartial groups. 

What proof do you have that women were not forbidden from schools?  The few female doctors practicing in Kabul (one city in all of Afghanistan) were educated BEFORE the Taliban came to power.  How many women became doctors AFTER?

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