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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 11:56am
Originally posted by StephenC

It appears that some Muslims today are doing similiar or even worse things in the name of Allah (not the pagan Allah).  So was Muhammad successful?

(Please don't use the lame excuse that others are doing the same thing.  I realize the evilness of man regardless of the religion)

Okay, but you're talking such a small amount.  At its height, AQ was considered to have 40,000 operatives.  There are 1.5 Billion Muslims.  Even if there were 150,000 terrorists.  You are talking 0.0001% of Muslims are committing these heinous acts and of those most of them are political in nature and not religious in nature.  They just get all the bad press.  So, I would say, given the number.  Yes, Muhammed did his job if only 1/100,000th of the population are crazed maniacs.



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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by StephenC

Stephenc wrote:

Quote:

I don't think anyone has any proof to support or discredit any of the three.  All that remains is blind faith.

Andalus responded with:

"You cannot prove or disprove events.

And the evidence suggests it was not Satan."

Please show me the evidence!!!!!

The theological message of the Quran and Sunnah is anti-thetical to satan, who is the archrival of man.

 

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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:35pm

Originally posted by StephenC

Is "suggests" sufficient a reason to base one's life on something?

If the confidence is high, yes. Since nothing in this world in the domain of human reason is absolute, your question is rhetorical nonsense.

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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by StephenC

>>So please, I ask you now, for the 4th or 5th time, please provide my friend with your criteria to judge a prophet and give us an example of a prophet?<<

I'll try again for your friend.  Please pay close attention:

Anyone can claim to be a prophet from God, but it is up to you to decide whether they truly are providing revelations from God.

Rhetorical "rubbish". It is not a matter of my paying attention, but it is a matter of you being unable to provide anything substantial. So far, you can only provide a series of "skeptical" playing cards which is not imrpessive. Any lout can play the skeptics card. The real intellect provides reason and thought.

Your above explanation does not provide anything of substance or meaning. We all know that it is up to ourselves to choose and pick a faith. Your complaints have been the skeptical "playing card", as yout ry to hide your bankrupt position behind a charade of reason. The truth is, you only seem to come off as "intellectual" and "of reason" when you are in the position of playing skeptic, beyond that you cannot provide anything else.

From this statement, I already know this reply will not offer my confused friend anything of value. You do not believe Prophet Muhammad (saw) was a prophet, based upon your "investigation", yet you do not have a criteria to prove that someone is a prophet. If you cannot figure out of someone is a prophet, then you have no way of figuring out if someone is not. It is that simple, and your attempts at claiming to be an investigator is intellectually bankrupt.

   

One way is to look at the claimed prophet's background.  Did they have a stable childhood, did they have difficulties in relationships.  A person's childhood has influence on a person's adult behavior.  For example, if a child was an orphan and was deprived of attention and bonding, then they might do things to gain that attention and get approval for their family, friends, and peers.

yaaawn. You are repeating yourself. Again, it is not a matter of the reader's attention span, but it is a matter of your repeating the same mantra about history, and relaitonships, and the rest of your cheap sophistry.

You can try and repeat yoruself over and over, but in the end, you are unable to make your position work, either for determing a prophet, or disclaiming a prophet.

Does the prophet claim encounters with God and Angels that is not verifiable?

Another way is to examine in detail what the claimed prophet said/wrote.  For example, if there are verses that are contradictory, then it is less likely to be truly from God.

Be aware of revelations that are written by committees or has been rewritten or editorialized.  For example, if a claimed revelation from God needs to be clarified by third parties, then it probably isn't from God.

Does the prophet gain from the revelations?  For example, the prophet of the Church Universal Triumpant (CUT) gains monetarily from her followers.  Is she a true prophet?  Her last name is legally prophet.

Did Jim Bakker gain monetarily from his revelants?  Yes, and he gained a prison term.

Does the revelation encompass discrimination and exclusion of persons or people?

Are some people not allowed full participation in religious activities because of non-optional characteristics?

If the answers to the above questions is "no", then the answer to the question as to whether the prophet is from God is probably "No" also.

Having a few "no's" is not necessarily totally ecluding of the prophet.  A lot of times, a person will have a revelation from God but will change it (or the editors will change it) for non-Godly reasons.

Does that help?

Far from helping, It is simply another heaping helping of the same thing you posted in your first attenpt at my question.

You cannot give a way to determine a prophet that is a working criteria. You are unable to give an example of a prophet. You are unable to disprove someone as a prophet. If you are truly an investigator, then your sceme would include these three points. Instead, you give a general idea of making an inquiry, which is not worth a nickle in the real world, and fails to provide anything helpful.

Hiding behind skeptical inquiry guised as trying to find the truth is unappealing, and insincere.

Hope this helps? 

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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by StephenC

What have I presented (other than that clearly marked as "investigator's note" or "uncited) that is untrue?

This was already covered. The context of what you term unture, and the thread. I will not rehash it. If you are unsatisfied with this reply, then I invite you to study the thread.

 

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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by StephenC

StephenC wrote:

"What are you claiming is false?  That they eventually married?  I thought that was an undisputed fact.  Or are you saying that he did not marry a second wife (since there is dispute as to whether he had two wives at the same time or not I wrote this so it was accurate regardless of circumstances).  Or is that you are saying that it is false that:

"Sometime later Muhammad married Khadijah, by whom he had two sons - who did not survive - and four daughters." IslamiCity.com Islamic History.

Andalus wrote:

"false: He did not take a second wife while with his first wife."

Where did I say Muhammad took a second wife while with his first wife??!!  I explained that and quoted where I got the information.  Are you claiming that IslamiCity.com is putting out false information?!?!

More subterfuge.

I am claiming that your writings had false information, which angela also pointed out. You implied that the Prophet (saw) took another wife while with Kadija. You explicitly claimed this in your first "investigation" (I use this word loosely, expltremely loosley when refering to your work).

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by StephenC

Andalus wrote:
>>There are no editions, and there were no editors. In this case, the mistake is not with the QUran, but with your critical thinking skills and lack of expereince wtih the Quran. That's ok. A common error amongst detractors.

The first huge mistake you are making is your reliance on translations.

The second mistake you are making is trying to equate the creation of Adam to that of his progeny.

Al-Sajadah 32: 7 - 8

Who made excellent everything that He created. He began the creation of man from clay, then made his offspring from a drop of humble fluid.

So not only is your investigation sloppy (how you missed this verse tells me you have studied polemical trash sites for your "intell"), and cursory, but your commnad of the Quran and how to read it are less than novice.<<

Is IslamiCity.com putting out "polemical trash"?  As I explained near the beginning of my discussion, unless I cite otherwise, I am getting the majority of my information from IslamiCity.com.  The quote is from IslamiCity.com's History of Islam and its Quran search.

I am beginning to think that instead of an honest debate, you are not really interested in discussion.

More sophistry.

I did not refer to Islamcity.org. I refered to your position and conclusion. You know this. Instead of replying directly to your error, and the correction I gave you, you attempt to make an issue out of a non issue. This speaks volumes about your character.

Do not speak of honest debate, as so far you have been less than honest. 

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bullet Posted: 27 September 2006 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by StephenC

Andalus wrote:

"Your NT has been torn apart by your own scholars who admit defects, variants, and the question of what is a NT.

Your NT is a troubled book, with a troubled past."

My NT!  I do not hold a copyright on the New Testament.  So why do you claim it is my NT?

Did I say that the New Testament is perfect?  I don't recall that and it would be against my earlier position about worshipping someone born of a woman.

Aren't you paying attention?

The key point is that you have been less than honest about what you do believe, hiding behind your skeptical game.

Furthermore, in case you have not payed attention to the history of religion, not everyone who has an NT worshipped someone who was birthed from a woman.

 

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