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StephenC
 
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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 10:43am

Personal history of subject of investigation.

As I stated above, the history/background of the subject has a bearing on the investigation.

Shall we discuss Muhammad's background/history?  With your permission, I will use the IslamiCity.com history to eliminate any claims of anti-Islam bias.

Muhammad's father used the arabic word for God (Allah) in his name.  This was a time when the people of the area were pagans.

Muhammad's father died just before he was born.

Muhammad's mother used a tradition where the infant "wet nursed."  (note: this was not in the IslamiCity.com history and presently I do not recall where I read this and the story about how even as a baby Muhammad would only take milk from one tit so that the "wet nurse's" natural child would have something to eat.  If this is baseless legend or if my failure to properly cite it is offensive, please disregard.)

Muhammad's mother died when he was 6 years old and he was sent away to live with a non-relative family.

The orphan child was raised by the grandfather.  The substitute father figure died and the child was passed over to an uncle.

The orphan child from a wealthy family was eventually turned over to a rural family to work as a herdsman.

(Investigator's note - did the circumstances of the child's early years have an effect on his ability to form relationships due to the difficulty of the baby bonding with an absent mother?)

When in his twenties, Muhammad entered into the service of a wealthy widow.

(Investigator's note - In a male dominated society, it must have been difficult for the son of a weathly family to work as an employee/servant of another, especially a woman.  Information from uncited works claim that the woman/boss made sexual advances towards the employee/servant)

And they eventually married.  However Muhammad, utilizing the custom of the time found a second wife to marry and they had two sons, both who died young.

Muhammad traveled a great deal.

In his forties while in a cave alone, Muhammad claimed to have an encounter with a being's voice of unknown origin, who commanded him to recite a statement

"Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood."

(Investigator's note - the resulting Qur'an which was said to be a revelation from God through this voice and later encounters claims God created man from dust.)

Muhammad refused, but after repeated demands, he finally did as he was ordered.

Muhammad is said to have relayed this encounter to his wife and close friends.

(Investigator's note - other uncited statements say that there was a three year period between the first encounter and the second.  Also due to the extensive time between the encounter and the present, no evidence has been found at the cave to support or discredit the claimed encounter.)

Muhammad later stated that his later learned the being was the Angel Grabriel, however, no explanation of how this identification was given.

Summary: Muhammad had what would be considered a rough childhood.  Anyone he bonded with as a child died.  He did not know his father and was apparently passed around as a child finally ending up with a rural non-related foster family where he had to work.  There is no indication that he inherited his family's weath.  He had to work for a woman who, under today's standards, could have been accused of the sexual harassment of an employee.  While still married, Muhammad (lawfully) married a second wife.  This marriage resulted in two sons.  Muhammad suffered additional "abandonment" by the death of these sons.  In a cave a voice forced him to recite verses.  There was a difference between the verse as recited and the late written book.

End part one.

Any problems or inaccuracies with the initial background/history of the subject of the investigation?

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Angela
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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 11:00am

Originally posted by StephenC

And they eventually married.  However Muhammad, utilizing the custom of the time found a second wife to marry and they had two sons, both who died young.

Muhammed was never married to anyone but Khadija during their marriage.  His other ways were taken after her death.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6582& ;PN=1



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bullet Posted: 23 September 2006 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by StephenC

A good investigator eliminates his/her personal beliefs/biases from the investigation.  Otherwise the investigation is worthless.  Does your friend truly was to know how to tell who is and who isn't a prophet of God?

Who was the first prophet?  I recall someone claiming that it was Adam.  I personally disagree and professionally do not see how Adam could be a prophet.  The first questions would be "What did Adam prophecy and to whom?"

Yes, God spoke to Adam, Eva, and the kids.  Who why would Adam be a prophet?

Using the Investigative techniques that I posted, applying them to Adam does support or discredit a claim that he was a prophet?

First of all, I do not see any claim by Adam that he was a prophet.  Where is that written in ANY religious text?

So dear friend, it is my personal and professional opinion that Adam was not a prophet, but he did have a personal relation with God that included conversation.

Which is the next Prophet that you would like to discuss?

You should investigate the idea of "prophet" in the context of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. They differ.

Perhaps I will comment further if time avails. Due to Ramadan, my time is very limited.

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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 23 September 2006 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by StephenC

Personal history of subject of investigation.

As I stated above, the history/background of the subject has a bearing on the investigation.

Shall we discuss Muhammad's background/history?  With your permission, I will use the IslamiCity.com history to eliminate any claims of anti-Islam bias.

Muhammad's father used the arabic word for God (Allah) in his name.  This was a time when the people of the area were pagans.

Open ended nonsense. This bges the questions: So what? and what is your point?

 

Muhammad's father died just before he was born.

Muhammad's mother used a tradition where the infant "wet nursed."  (note: this was not in the IslamiCity.com history and presently I do not recall where I read this and the story about how even as a baby Muhammad would only take milk from one tit so that the "wet nurse's" natural child would have something to eat.  If this is baseless legend or if my failure to properly cite it is offensive, please disregard.)

It was a custom for noble families to send their young to live with bedouins and to be suckled with members of these tribes.

Muhammad's mother died when he was 6 years old and he was sent away to live with a non-relative family.

The orphan child was raised by the grandfather.  The substitute father figure died and the child was passed over to an uncle.

The orphan child from a wealthy family was eventually turned over to a rural family to work as a herdsman.

(Investigator's note - did the circumstances of the child's early years have an effect on his ability to form relationships due to the difficulty of the baby bonding with an absent mother?)

irrelevant and supositional

The topic is not about how, in general, were his relationahips.

If you feel that some particular event effected some particular relationship and such a causal effect is relevant to an investigation of prophethood, then please state in these terms.

When in his twenties, Muhammad entered into the service of a wealthy widow.

(Investigator's note - In a male dominated society, it must have been difficult for the son of a weathly family to work as an employee/servant of another, especially a woman.  Information from uncited works claim that the woman/boss made sexual advances towards the employee/servant)

conjecture, specualtion, and irrelevant.

Please state the particual point being made in terms of an investigation into his claim of prophethood.

And they eventually married.  However Muhammad, utilizing the custom of the time found a second wife to marry and they had two sons, both who died young.

false

Muhammad traveled a great deal.

what do you mean "a great deal" and what does it mean?

 

In his forties while in a cave alone, Muhammad claimed to have an encounter with a being's voice of unknown origin, who commanded him to recite a statement

"Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood."

(Investigator's note - the resulting Qur'an which was said to be a revelation from God through this voice and later encounters claims God created man from dust.)

this begs the question: So what?

Please make a point?

Muhammad refused, but after repeated demands, he finally did as he was ordered.

 

Another vague, general statement.

Clarify "refused", and make a point that is in the context of an investigation.

 

 

Muhammad is said to have relayed this encounter to his wife and close friends.

(Investigator's note - other uncited statements say that there was a three year period between the first encounter and the second.  Also due to the extensive time between the encounter and the present, no evidence has been found at the cave to support or discredit the claimed encounter.)

First part: You beg the question: so what? Please make a point.

Second Part: You also begged the question: So what?

What was supposed to be found in the cave to show the Gariel was there, and why must Gabriel leave something in the cave?

Muhammad later stated that his later learned the being was the Angel Grabriel, however, no explanation of how this identification was given.

How did Moses know Gd spoke to him? There is no explanation given, so Moses did not talk to Gd.

Very juvenile.

Summary: Muhammad had what would be considered a rough childhood.  Anyone he bonded with as a child died.  He did not know his father and was apparently passed around as a child finally ending up with a rural non-related foster family where he had to work.  There is no indication that he inherited his family's weath. 

Are you going to make a solid point sometime this century? Seriously.

You beg the question: So what.

 He had to work for a woman who, under today's standards, could have been accused of the sexual harassment of an employee.

Suppositional nonsense.

"he had to" is your conjecture. Accusation of "sexual harassament" is also more of your juvenile conjecture. And then you top it all of by using the phrase, "by todays standards".

So far, your investigation is a poorly written, sophomoric piece that is void of any real critical thinking. You meander on without making any points, throwing out vague ideas that are so implicit that only a missionary would use. There is nothing in this softball peice that even begins to truly argue for the case of prophethood.

  While still married, Muhammad (lawfully) married a second wife.  This marriage resulted in two sons. 

False.

 Muhammad suffered additional "abandonment" by the death of these sons.  In a cave a voice forced him to recite verses.  There was a difference between the verse as recited and the late written book.

End part one.

More rubbish. Someone dying is not an abandonment. You are trying to embellish.

He recited in a cave, and other places afterward. So what?

A voice did not force him, Gd compelled him.

What differences exist?

Any problems or inaccuracies with the initial background/history of the subject of the investigation?

 

Yes.

You fail to make a point. I would hardly call this an investigation of someone who is as scholarly as you claim to be.

Also, embellishing, and conjecture, and supposition are not tools for an investigation. This has striking similarities to the work of an evangelical.

I am still waiting for you to reveal who you consider to be a true prophet.

So much secrecy!

 



Edited by Andalus
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http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
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StephenC
 
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bullet Posted: 23 September 2006 at 8:47pm

You don't seem to add anything to the discussion other than to attempt to wave off my statements without any contrary facts.

Tell your friend that there is absolutely NO PROOF at all that Muhammad was a true prophet from God.  The only thing we have is that he apparently claimed to be one.  There is no more proof of his prophethood then there is for "alien abductions."

As for all the other claimed prophets, the same holds for them.  There is no proof.

Now if your friend wants to believe that Muhammad was a prophet, that is fine and dandy for him.  Me, God gave me a mind and the ability to reason.

All my professional career I have dealt with people who made unsubstantuated claims.  Most I have disproven.  Using the talents God gave me and my training and experiences, I can not say that Muhammad was a true prophet from God.  Nor can I say he was not.  I disagree with some of his revelations and I agree with some of his revelations.

I can point out how the Quran has verses that contradict itself.  I've pointed out a few of these (i.e. God made man from a clot of blood and God made mad from dust).

The Quran has been edited and re-edited.  The third Cailph set up a committe because he was concerned about all the conflicting versions.

If we looked at Muhammad's life before the alleged encounter with the voice, he find that he had what we would call today a "disfunctional childhood."  Many people overcome such adversities, many don't.

If we look at the situation of the first "voice" we find questionable aspects of it.

For example, since Muhammad came from a paganistic area/family, what was he meditating on?

One thing for sure is that there are more legends and myths then there are facts about Muhammad.

But back to your friend, for the majority of the people, their religion is that of their family.  If he/she is happy with that religion, stick with it.  If not, seek out one you like.

Me, I'm "John the Baptist" religion type of guy.

My revelation from God is that God is the one we should worship and pray to, not anyone born of a woman.  If you want to pray to God in some one's name.  That is fine.

We all know what is right and what is wrong.  We don't need any man to tell us otherwise.

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bullet Posted: 24 September 2006 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by StephenC

Personal history of subject of investigation.

As I stated above, the history/background of the subject has a bearing on the investigation.

Shall we discuss Muhammad's background/history?  With your permission, I will use the IslamiCity.com history to eliminate any claims of anti-Islam bias.

Muhammad's father used the arabic word for God (Allah) in his name.  This was a time when the people of the area were pagans.

Open ended nonsense. This bges the questions: So what? and what is your point?

 

I find it amusing that you seem to think of yourself as some kind of teacher grading student papers where you post your remarks without any basis.

An investigator's "job" is to find and report the facts.  The facts according to all undisputed accounts is that Muhammad had a bad childhood.  It is the jury's job to decide the revelance.  As for your comment that it is open ended nonsense.  I find that rather disrepectful (and I am shocked) that you would say that about the Muhammad's childhood! 

 

Muhammad's father died just before he was born.

Muhammad's mother used a tradition where the infant "wet nursed."  (note: this was not in the IslamiCity.com history and presently I do not recall where I read this and the story about how even as a baby Muhammad would only take milk from one tit so that the "wet nurse's" natural child would have something to eat.  If this is baseless legend or if my failure to properly cite it is offensive, please disregard.) - stephenc

>>It was a custom for noble families to send their young to live with bedouins and to be suckled with members of these tribes.<<

And what would a infant development specialist say about such a customs?  Not a good one in my opinion.

[quote]

Muhammad's mother died when he was 6 years old and he was sent away to live with a non-relative family.

The orphan child was raised by the grandfather.  The substitute father figure died and the child was passed over to an uncle.

The orphan child from a wealthy family was eventually turned over to a rural family to work as a herdsman.

(Investigator's note - did the circumstances of the child's early years have an effect on his ability to form relationships due to the difficulty of the baby bonding with an absent mother?)

irrelevant and supositional

The topic is not about how, in general, were his relationahips.

If you feel that some particular event effected some particular relationship and such a causal effect is relevant to an investigation of prophethood, then please state in these terms.

[quote]

Again, I am shocked that you would say that Muhammad's childhood was irrelevant and supositional!  How are we to learn of Muhammad the man if we know nothing of Muhammad's childhood?  Or are you saying that IslamiCity.com has irrelevant and supositional information about Muhammad?

When in his twenties, Muhammad entered into the service of a wealthy widow.

(Investigator's note - In a male dominated society, it must have been difficult for the son of a weathly family to work as an employee/servant of another, especially a woman.  Information from uncited works claim that the woman/boss made sexual advances towards the employee/servant)

conjecture, specualtion, and irrelevant.

Please state the particual point being made in terms of an investigation into his claim of prophethood.

[quote]

Again this investigation into whether Muhammad was a prophet for God or not is looking at what we know about Muhammad.  Is there a reason we should not take into consideration the type of person he was?

>>And they eventually married.  However Muhammad, utilizing the custom of the time found a second wife to marry and they had two sons, both who died young.<<

"false"

What are you claiming is false?  That they eventually married?  I thought that was an undisputed fact.  Or are you saying that he did not marry a second wife (since there is dispute as to whether he had two wives at the same time or not I wrote this so it was accurate regardless of circumstances).  Or is that you are saying that it is false that:

"Sometime later Muhammad married Khadijah, by whom he had two sons - who did not survive - and four daughters." IslamiCity.com Islamic History.

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bullet Posted: 24 September 2006 at 8:36pm

>>In his forties while in a cave alone, Muhammad claimed to have an encounter with a being's voice of unknown origin, who commanded him to recite a statement

"Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood."

(Investigator's note - the resulting Qur'an which was said to be a revelation from God through this voice and later encounters claims God created man from dust.)<<stephenc

"this begs the question: So what?

Please make a point?" Andalus

My point is the revelation that Muhammad claims that the unidentified (at that time) voice made him recite ("Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood.")

And what was written in the Quran (at least in it's lastest rewrite) in "Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)  3:59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is." contradict each other.  Or in Arabic is "clot of blood" the same as "dust?"

In investigations, it is attention to detail that proves or disproves a statement.

If the many different committees (or editors) can not get that right, I wonder what else did they get wrong?  Maybe the whole thing or a substantial part of it?

Can you find such an obvious contradiction in the "New Testament?"  And this is not the only contradiction that I find in the Quran!

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bullet Posted: 24 September 2006 at 8:40pm

Quote:

Any problems or inaccuracies with the initial background/history of the subject of the investigation?

 

Yes.

You fail to make a point. I would hardly call this an investigation of someone who is as scholarly as you claim to be.

Also, embellishing, and conjecture, and supposition are not tools for an investigation. This has striking similarities to the work of an evangelical.

I am still waiting for you to reveal who you consider to be a true prophet.

So much secrecy!<<

An investigation is not a "point" it is a collection of facts.  What did I post that was in error, an embellishing, or a conjecture?

How about a simple answer to a simple question?:

Where did I claim to be "scholarly?'

It appears that it is solely YOU who are in ERROR and not me since you seem to be making things up about me and my investigation!

 

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