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Andalus
 
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bullet Topic: For StephenC
    Posted: 21 September 2006 at 1:00pm

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that I have this friend next to me and he is lost and not sure about who to believe when it comes to prophethood.

Please tell him who a prophet is and how you determined this? 

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bullet Posted: 21 September 2006 at 8:59pm

If someone claims to be a prophet from God it is their responsiblity to prove it with verifiable facts and unbiased witnesses.

Any written or oral statements must be allowed to be examined freely without any added editorals or clarifications.  Any differences shall be examined in detail.

If their prophecy contradicts older documents then the older documents will be given greater creditability unless the prophet can provide indepentently verifiable evidence that the older document was false.

Since there are Angels and devils (Satan, evil spirits) any claimed visitation (especially unwitnessed encounters) must be accompanied with how the visitee knew that the Angel was not the deceiver-Satan or an evil spirit.  Mere unhumanlike abilities or appearances do not prove identification.

If two people claim the same type of encounter, but have different revelations, the differences should be investigated in detail.

There seems to be many more "false prophets" then actual prophets.  Looking at their history/background can give insight into the validity of their revelations.

For example, Moses, the former Prince of Egypt gave up his worldly goods and positions for the sake of his revelations.

Be especially wary of those prophets who gain materially from their revelations and use their position for sexual gains.

Does that help?

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Angela
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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 8:51am
Originally posted by StephenC

If someone claims to be a prophet from God it is their responsiblity to prove it with verifiable facts and unbiased witnesses.

Verifiable facts are often elusive in the context of real prophets.  Show me "proof" that Moses existed other than written accounts.  As for Unbiased witnesses, there is no such thing in the world of religion.  Either people believe the Prophet or Not, there is no inbetween.

Any written or oral statements must be allowed to be examined freely without any added editorals or clarifications.  Any differences shall be examined in detail.

Correct, accounts should be judged and examined in detail.  But, not just the first statement, all statements made by said witnesses until their deaths.  This should be checked for any recantation of the original witnesses.  However, the spin put on them by outsiders should be discounted as in any form, pro or against is a form of editorial or clarification.

If their prophecy contradicts older documents then the older documents will be given greater creditability unless the prophet can provide indepentently verifiable evidence that the older document was false.

In doing this though, you miss on of the fundementals of the continuation of Prophets.  Prophets are sent to lead the people, this includes returning them to the path that they have lost.  Documents can become corrupted over time and lost.  There several issues in regards to giving older texts preference.  Look at Noah and Moses.  Noah was given 7 laws, Moses 10 laws, Jesus gave only 1.

Since there are Angels and devils (Satan, evil spirits) any claimed visitation (especially unwitnessed encounters) must be accompanied with how the visitee knew that the Angel was not the deceiver-Satan or an evil spirit.  Mere unhumanlike abilities or appearances do not prove identification.

Many traditions speak of ways to tell an Angel from a Devil.  First off, in many traditions, Angel's are accompanied with a brilliant light that radiates with the power of God.  This is something said to be unable to be faked by devils.  Secondly, in many traditions Angel's feet never touch the ground.  In Islam, Angel's have no face, only a brilliant white light.  In some traditions an Angel cannot touch you since you are still mortal.  Therefore, ask to shake his hand.  An Angel will say no and why.  A Devil cannot resist but to continue to deceive and will try to shake your hand.  Again, there are commonalities in most faiths on the difference between the two.  Also, its said that the Faithful are protected and can tell the difference.

If two people claim the same type of encounter, but have different revelations, the differences should be investigated in detail.

Similarities should also be considered.  Each Prophet is given a portion of the Truth according to the Will and Desire of the Almighty.  Each group is taught according to what they are ready to receive and able to follow.  Therefore, the teachings of Prophets may be different but not necessarily wrong.  Again, we are dealing with a Supreme Being with a plan greater than our understanding.

There seems to be many more "false prophets" then actual prophets.  Looking at their history/background can give insight into the validity of their revelations.

God gave us instructions on how to tell the difference in Matthew 7.

  16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
  17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
  18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
  19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
  20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

For example, Moses, the former Prince of Egypt gave up his worldly goods and positions for the sake of his revelations.

Be especially wary of those prophets who gain materially from their revelations and use their position for sexual gains.

Moses gave up his wealth as an Egyptian Prince but not heir to the Throne.  He became the defacto Ruler of an entire nation through his actions.  David became King.  Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.  Blessings are given to the Prophets and hardships.  You seem to be looking at things with a Modern/Western morality and not necessarily with the eye on what is allowed in the Scriptures and what is acceptable by the God.  One responsibility of a Prophet is to see to the security and welfare of his people.  Economical stability for the people is important, however, you have false Prophets like Warren Jeffs who are wealthy beyond belief and encourages his people to give him all their worldly possessions and live in poverty.  One should look at the condition of the followers compared to that of the Prophet when judging gain.

Does that help?

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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 9:40am
Originally posted by StephenC

If someone claims to be a prophet from God it is their responsiblity to prove it with verifiable facts and unbiased witnesses.

This is simply a general repeat you have already expressed and does not give my confused friend a criteria. Your statement is self obvious.

Any written or oral statements must be allowed to be examined freely without any added editorals or clarifications.  Any differences shall be examined in detail.

So which prophet do you believe existed and what oral statements did you examine? What written statements did you examine? What editorials have obfuscated your investigation?

Please, you are simply rehashing your general ideas of questioning someone who claims to be a prophet.

If their prophecy contradicts older documents then the older documents will be given greater creditability unless the prophet can provide indepentently verifiable evidence that the older document was false.

So which person was a prophet who's prophecies did not contradict?

 

Since there are Angels and devils (Satan, evil spirits) any claimed visitation (especially unwitnessed encounters) must be accompanied with how the visitee knew that the Angel was not the deceiver-Satan or an evil spirit.  Mere unhumanlike abilities or appearances do not prove identification.

You have already said this.

So was Daniel visited by an angel or not? And if so, how do you know it was not the devil?

 

If two people claim the same type of encounter, but have different revelations, the differences should be investigated in detail.

Irrelevant.

Another repeat, and irrelevant.

We are trying to establish a criteria for my friend who is confused. Establish the ability to choose a prophet, not between two people you already do not believe to be prophets.

Friend, you are trying to play it safe, and intellectually dishonest.

Here is how: You do not want to divulge who you think is a prophet, or your particualt beliefs. So you produce a false dichotomy of sorts, with a built in safe guard for you.

You chose two people with some similar claims (similar claims you can find throughout the bible and the Talmud), and the bonus is that you do not believe either are prophets. The two have followers with theological ideas completely at odds, and the bonus for you is: Your personal ideas remain untouched by any criticsm in the debate, you just sit back and watch Mormons and Muslims tear at each other.

Your continued insistence of trying to stick the two men together under the guise of trying to determing who a prophets is, is a bit suspect.

 

There seems to be many more "false prophets" then actual prophets.  Looking at their history/background can give insight into the validity of their revelations.

You have, more or less, stated this already.

For example, Moses, the former Prince of Egypt gave up his worldly goods and positions for the sake of his revelations.

Actually he did not. He was forced into exhile after murdering a guard.

He had not recieved revelation at the point of his exhile.

Furthermore, what evidence do you have to examine that he was a prophet. (I know, you will reply that you did not actually say you believe he was a prophet, fine, I will play your charade)

 

Be especially wary of those prophets who gain materially from their revelations and use their position for sexual gains.

 

Like Solomon? Or David? How about Daniel? Please give examples?

Does that help?

No. You did not provide a criteria. My friend cannot possibly use your general views as a criteria to determine a prophet, and he still would like you to provide an example of a prophet so he may understand the application of your investigational criteria?

Thanks 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by StephenC

If someone claims to be a prophet from God it is their responsiblity to prove it with verifiable facts and unbiased witnesses.

Verifiable facts are often elusive in the context of real prophets.  Show me "proof" that Moses existed other than written accounts.  As for Unbiased witnesses, there is no such thing in the world of religion.  Either people believe the Prophet or Not, there is no inbetween.

Any written or oral statements must be allowed to be examined freely without any added editorals or clarifications.  Any differences shall be examined in detail.

Correct, accounts should be judged and examined in detail.  But, not just the first statement, all statements made by said witnesses until their deaths.  This should be checked for any recantation of the original witnesses.  However, the spin put on them by outsiders should be discounted as in any form, pro or against is a form of editorial or clarification.

If their prophecy contradicts older documents then the older documents will be given greater creditability unless the prophet can provide indepentently verifiable evidence that the older document was false.

In doing this though, you miss on of the fundementals of the continuation of Prophets.  Prophets are sent to lead the people, this includes returning them to the path that they have lost.  Documents can become corrupted over time and lost.  There several issues in regards to giving older texts preference.  Look at Noah and Moses.  Noah was given 7 laws, Moses 10 laws, Jesus gave only 1.

Since there are Angels and devils (Satan, evil spirits) any claimed visitation (especially unwitnessed encounters) must be accompanied with how the visitee knew that the Angel was not the deceiver-Satan or an evil spirit.  Mere unhumanlike abilities or appearances do not prove identification.

Many traditions speak of ways to tell an Angel from a Devil.  First off, in many traditions, Angel's are accompanied with a brilliant light that radiates with the power of God.  This is something said to be unable to be faked by devils.  Secondly, in many traditions Angel's feet never touch the ground.  In Islam, Angel's have no face, only a brilliant white light.  In some traditions an Angel cannot touch you since you are still mortal.  Therefore, ask to shake his hand.  An Angel will say no and why.  A Devil cannot resist but to continue to deceive and will try to shake your hand.  Again, there are commonalities in most faiths on the difference between the two.  Also, its said that the Faithful are protected and can tell the difference.

If two people claim the same type of encounter, but have different revelations, the differences should be investigated in detail.

Similarities should also be considered.  Each Prophet is given a portion of the Truth according to the Will and Desire of the Almighty.  Each group is taught according to what they are ready to receive and able to follow.  Therefore, the teachings of Prophets may be different but not necessarily wrong.  Again, we are dealing with a Supreme Being with a plan greater than our understanding.

There seems to be many more "false prophets" then actual prophets.  Looking at their history/background can give insight into the validity of their revelations.

God gave us instructions on how to tell the difference in Matthew 7.

  16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
  17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
  18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
  19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
  20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

For example, Moses, the former Prince of Egypt gave up his worldly goods and positions for the sake of his revelations.

Be especially wary of those prophets who gain materially from their revelations and use their position for sexual gains.

Moses gave up his wealth as an Egyptian Prince but not heir to the Throne.  He became the defacto Ruler of an entire nation through his actions.  David became King.  Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.  Blessings are given to the Prophets and hardships.  You seem to be looking at things with a Modern/Western morality and not necessarily with the eye on what is allowed in the Scriptures and what is acceptable by the God.  One responsibility of a Prophet is to see to the security and welfare of his people.  Economical stability for the people is important, however, you have false Prophets like Warren Jeffs who are wealthy beyond belief and encourages his people to give him all their worldly possessions and live in poverty.  One should look at the condition of the followers compared to that of the Prophet when judging gain.

Does that help?

Wow Angela. You rock!

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 9:58am

A good investigator eliminates his/her personal beliefs/biases from the investigation.  Otherwise the investigation is worthless.  Does your friend truly was to know how to tell who is and who isn't a prophet of God?

Who was the first prophet?  I recall someone claiming that it was Adam.  I personally disagree and professionally do not see how Adam could be a prophet.  The first questions would be "What did Adam prophecy and to whom?"

Yes, God spoke to Adam, Eva, and the kids.  Who why would Adam be a prophet?

Using the Investigative techniques that I posted, applying them to Adam does support or discredit a claim that he was a prophet?

First of all, I do not see any claim by Adam that he was a prophet.  Where is that written in ANY religious text?

So dear friend, it is my personal and professional opinion that Adam was not a prophet, but he did have a personal relation with God that included conversation.

Which is the next Prophet that you would like to discuss?

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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 10:01am

The Prophets of this world have been so varied in their callings that it is nearly impossible to set up a definitive criteria.  All have similarities, but they also have vast differences.  Some were the witnesses of Great Miracles, others simply brought messages.  Some were disobedient. (Look at Jonah)  Others were faithful unto death.  The mantle of Prophet is not something carried lightly by any man, but we must remember, as perfect or imperfect as the may be/have been, they are just men.  It is the Power of the Almighty God that raises them up or places them low. 

That is want of the reasons I love that Muhammed stressed that he was a servant/slave/messanger.  He made it clear that he served God and not himself.

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bullet Posted: 22 September 2006 at 10:24am
Originally posted by StephenC

A good investigator eliminates his/her personal beliefs/biases from the investigation.  Otherwise the investigation is worthless.  Does your friend truly was to know how to tell who is and who isn't a prophet of God?

Who was the first prophet?  I recall someone claiming that it was Adam.  I personally disagree and professionally do not see how Adam could be a prophet.  The first questions would be "What did Adam prophecy and to whom?"

There are group of muslims that stated Adam was not a prophet but messenger. He was not the only one they said as a non prophet but few others. Prophet in Arabic is "Nabii" with duty to pass on the "Naba". Naba means news, tidings. So the Gospel which is known as the Good news is actually the Naba that passed on by Nabi.

So the question should be, to whom Adam passed on the Naba, the Gospel?

But as Angela said above that tags had come along with Nabi tag. Messengers in the Qur'an must be Nabi first. Nabi were not necessarily messenger but all messengers were Prophets.

In the Qur'an Adam was a Khalifah, so too Dawud (David), and Dawud was a prophet.

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