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Quran & Sunnah
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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2006 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by B.H.

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by B.H.

You obey Allah and the Prophet by obeying what they say in the Quran.

2:187

187. It is made lawful for you to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are Lbas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar], for you and you are the same for them. Allh knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which Allh has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall. And do not have sexual relations with them (your wives) while you are in I'tikf (i.e. confining oneself in a mosque for prayers and invocations leaving the worldly activities) in the mosques. These are the limits (set) by Allh, so approach them not. Thus does Allh make clear His Ayt (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, verses, laws, legal and illegal things, Allh's set limits, orders, etc.) to mankind that they may become Al-Muttaqn (the pious - see V.2:2).

The prohibition referred to in this verse (underlined) that Allah has removed is not mentioned in the Quran.

1) The order was given by the Prophet (saw)

2) The order is not part of the recited "wahy" (revelation)

3) The followers obeyed it, as if it had been part of the recited "wahy".

This proves:

a) not every command came through the recited wahy, and b) the Prophet (saw) gave commands, that were given by Allah, and were binding, as if it were in the recited wahy.

So this is a case where Muslims followed what Allah and His mesenger stated, and it was not in the Quran.

Therefore:

Following Allah and His messenger does not mean following only the Quran. 

 

 

thank you very much for your kind reply.

 

I hope you are doing well Andalus.

 

I do not see where the text supports your idea.  The way I see it, the Prophet was correcting a false doctrine being taught without authority.  Some people were saying it was a sin to sleep with their wives the night of the fasts, which Allah never commanded be done.  The Prophet isn't invalidating an old command from Allah at all ,but refuting a false doctrine.

Greetings.

1) The prophet gave an order.

2) Breaking it was a sin.

3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah,

4) The actual command was not in the Quran.

What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting?

People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin,

Allh knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which Allh has ordained for you (offspring),

How can He forgive something that was not a sin?

 He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed.

This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran.

I am unable to follow your objection?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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B.H.
 
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2006 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

B.H wrote, 'Of course the consensus of the community can never allow anything explicitly forbidden in the Quran nor can it set aside clearly given instructions concerning the likes of ritual and morals'.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '[Shakir 68:4] And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality'.

So many other places when there is command of following the Messenger of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala (sallallahu alaihe wassalam) and we can find His sunnah regarding majority of matters, then what is the reason for not following them and how would we be really following the Holy Quran if we choose to ignore some parts of it?

How can consensus of some scholars be equal or better than the decision of a Prophet when message comes to the Prophet day and night from the Supreme authority?

wassalam

You have to establish that following Allah is somehow different from following the prophet.

The Prophet was inspired as far as giving us the Holy Quran but he was not necessarily inspired in all of his actions.  In fact, there are times he is actually rebuked by Allah in the Quran itself.

I still see no difference between equating obedience to Allah as obedience to the Prophet.  It would be like the president of a company saying to do a certain thing, and tells one of his managers to tell the workers to do that certain thing.  The workers could then say that when they followed the command they were obeying the president and the manager.

The Quran has allowed room for the consensus of the community on certain issues.  It is not my problem if some people object to that.



Edited by B.H.
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2006 at 11:39pm

This is my response to Brother Andalus.

 

Greetings.

1) The prophet gave an order.

You assume that he gave an order that was later rescinded by the text in question.  I see nothing in the Holy Quran itself that lends itself that such is in fact the case.  Where does it explicitly state that the Prophet forbade having relations with one's wife during the fast and that this verse is a reversal of that order?

2) Breaking it was a sin.

You are assuming something the text does not say.  You are assuming that the prophet gave an order that Allah later abrogated.  It says that they were deceiving themselves.  If they were following a command of the prophet how could it be said they were deceiving themselves?  My inference from the text is that the people somehow got the idea falsely that they could not have relations with their wives during the fast and the Prophet was refuting this false doctrine.

3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah,

I agree.  However, something cannot be a sin if it is commanded by Allah either.  These people were following an error and if Allah through the Prophet had commanded the people not to have relations with their wives they would not have been said to be deceiving themselves.

4) The actual command was not in the Quran.

But you have not proven from the text that such a command was in fact given.

What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting?

He was correcting the false idea that people could not have relations with their wives during the time frame being spoken of.

People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin,

Where does the actual text say this?

Allh knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which Allh has ordained for you (offspring),

How can He forgive something that was not a sin?

That's the point.  If Allah or the prophet through Allah's approval had ordered men to abstain from their wives no one would be committing a sin.

 He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed.

But where does it actually say this in the text?  How can they be said to be deceived if they are following Allah in totally abstaining from their wives?  I can understand that it could be said that they deceived themselves if they were following a command that was falsey believed to be Allah's will.  Anyway, you cannot show me in the actual text that it is speaking of what you think it is speaking of.

This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran.

I humbly disagree.

I am unable to follow your objection?

I hope this response cleared things up a bit.



Edited by B.H.
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Quote Alwardah Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2006 at 4:18am

As Salamu Alaikum BH

 

Wow you really gave me something to thing about.

 

Do you really believe that we can practices our religious duties by following the consensus of the community on issues that we are not given exact details on in the Glorious Qur'an without referring them to the Sunnah.

 

Does that mean that if we decided amongst the members here in IC, due to our busy lives we now wish to pray only twice daily not five time, then we can decided by consensus and go ahead, or due to the affluence in most societies now days we only need to pay 1% zakat every 10 years. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! Do you honestly believe that Allah Subhanahu wa Taala will accept such Ibadah from us.

 

Dear brother/sister (not sure if you are a brother or sister) I would suggest that you go back to the basis and I mean here the first pillar of Islam.

 

Remember we took the Shahadah: I bear witness that there is No God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger.

 

The Sunnah/Hadith are classified- some if we do not follow them, we are committing a sin and others if you do follow them, we stand to gain reward from Allah Subhanahu wa Taala.

 

The Ahadith relating to the way we worship Allah Subhanahu wa Taala like Salah, Zakat etc if we do not follow the method the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) taught us to pray, etc we are committing a sin and our Ibadah will not be accepted.

 

On the other hand we have Ahadith showing the preferences of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) which if we follow them, Alhamdulillah we will be greatly rewarded and if we do not practice them then Insha Allah it is okay we do not get punished.

 

Let me give you an example: Take Salatul-Dhuhr the Fard (obligatory) is 4 Rakat if we pray two Rakat or five Rakat it will not be accepted and we will be punished for our negligence. On the other hand we know that the Prophet prayed some Sunnah Rakat before and after the 4 Fard. Now there we have a choice if we wish to pray the 2 Rakat before and 2 Rakat after that is our wish, no punishment here but ample reward. If one desires to increase the Voluntary (Sunnah/Nawafil) prayers Alhamdulillah that is good for the individual. If someone has the time and wishes to pray 10 Rakat after the 4 Fard no one can stop him neither can anyone one tell him that he is committing a sin by doing so. On the other hand if someone just prays the 4 Rakat and is on his way out of the Masjid- no one can tell him that he is committing a sin by not praying the 2 Rakat Sunnah after it. So you see the Hadith are classified, so I suggest you take the time to learn and distinguish what is necessary and what is not, not blankly say WE DONT NEED HADITH ONLY QUR'AN

 

And remember what Allah Subhanahu wa Taala has stated in the Glorious Qur'an

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell what an evil destination! (Surah An-Nisa 4: 115)

Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it.  (Surah Al-Hashr 59: 7)

Do you then accept part of the Glorious Qur'an and deny part?

May Allah Subhanahu wa Taala save us from the whisperings of Shaitan and our own whims and desires and guide us to the truth and keep us on HIS Siratul-Mustaqeem. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

 

Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-Anam 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2006 at 11:39am

Dear Alwardah,

 

I will be back later and respond to you post hopefully tonight.  Good day and may all of you be blessed by the Almighty.



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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2006 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by B.H.

This is my response to Brother Andalus.

 

Greetings.

1) The prophet gave an order.

You assume that he gave an order that was later rescinded by the text in question.  I see nothing in the Holy Quran itself that lends itself that such is in fact the case.  Where does it explicitly state that the Prophet forbade having relations with one's wife during the fast and that this verse is a reversal of that order?

2) Breaking it was a sin.

You are assuming something the text does not say.  You are assuming that the prophet gave an order that Allah later abrogated.  It says that they were deceiving themselves.  If they were following a command of the prophet how could it be said they were deceiving themselves?  My inference from the text is that the people somehow got the idea falsely that they could not have relations with their wives during the fast and the Prophet was refuting this false doctrine.

3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah,

I agree.  However, something cannot be a sin if it is commanded by Allah either.  These people were following an error and if Allah through the Prophet had commanded the people not to have relations with their wives they would not have been said to be deceiving themselves.

4) The actual command was not in the Quran.

But you have not proven from the text that such a command was in fact given.

What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting?

He was correcting the false idea that people could not have relations with their wives during the time frame being spoken of.

People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin,

Where does the actual text say this?

Allh knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which Allh has ordained for you (offspring),

How can He forgive something that was not a sin?

That's the point.  If Allah or the prophet through Allah's approval had ordered men to abstain from their wives no one would be committing a sin.

 He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed.

But where does it actually say this in the text?  How can they be said to be deceived if they are following Allah in totally abstaining from their wives?  I can understand that it could be said that they deceived themselves if they were following a command that was falsey believed to be Allah's will.  Anyway, you cannot show me in the actual text that it is speaking of what you think it is speaking of.

This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran.

I humbly disagree.

I am unable to follow your objection?

I hope this response cleared things up a bit.

Greetings.

Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity.

So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

You believe that the Muslims followed some other source.

You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

Does this sum up yuor belief?

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:25am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '3:103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves;

Every time i read things like this and i think why do we not see the bigger picture. All you need to do is read the history and see how sahabah (ra) and salhaf were, there were not, just this and just that group for them, they were muslims. The laws are made from Holy Quran and Sunnah, thats how it always was from the day one. Brother all we need to know is Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is close to us than our jugular vein, He knows our intention, if we are sincere He would guide us to His way. But if we are looking for an easy way out and means to give up few things because it is too hard to do this in this day and age. Then still the matter is between you and your Lord, He will judge you and He is Most Just Judge.

If you think that you can work out every Fard through Holy Quran alone then May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala bless you with wisdom and understanding to do that.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2006 at 8:08pm

Br. Andalus wrote:

 

Greetings.

Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity.

So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

You believe that the Muslims followed some other source.

You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

Does this sum up yuor belief?

 

Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast.



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