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Kariim25
 
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Quote Kariim25 Replybullet Topic: JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM :GOSPEL OF MATTHEW
    Posted: 16 September 2006 at 10:23am

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM / MOHAMMED (peace be upon him) IN THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW ( IN BIBLE ), AND TOLD ABOUT “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK”-RELIGIONS (in Qur´an/ Quran / Koran 600 years later!), AND TIME-SCHEDULE OF THOSE, AND TOLD ORDER OF THOSE RELIGIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS: (Allah knows best)


KORAN: 2:62

(Translation of) YUSUFALI: "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "


KORAN: 2:105


(Translation of) YUSUFALI: "It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding."

(NOTICE THAT “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK” CAN REFER TO ALL PEOPLE F.EX. IN CHRISTIAN CULTURES, BELIEVERS OR NOT, BECAUSE ALLAH DOES NOT DEMAND BELIEVING INTO LIES)


These two "hidden prophecy" (another in link about prophecy in Gospel of Luke) are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC (and so Jewish-religion 1600 BC->) to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 12 hours = 200 years

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (before "first hour" of 12 hours of day in Jewish calendar, so Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC and Jews as a religion after them in "first hour" 1600-1400 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1300/1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians, even in Bible there is two "Sabians" in opposite directions, another possibly in South-Iraq) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread much outside their own Jewish nation). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity, notice simple description as Jesus is speaking about religion most connected to himself).

6. ABOUT (not exactly 400-600 AC) the eleventh hour (Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him: 570-632 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even
Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only, as a "chosen people")?'


16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

[Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"]

 

MY CALCULATIONS IN Matt.20:1-16

There is no mentioning if workers came in what part of each "hour"

("about") 11th = 400-600 AC, Islam 570-632AC (to beginning of 12th)
10th = 200-400 AC
9th = 1 AC-200 AC (Christianity 32 AC ->)
8th = 200 BC- 1 AD
7th = 400 BC-200 BC
6th = 600 BC-400 BC (Messiah prophesied)
5th = 800 BC-600 BC
4th = 1000 BC- 800 BC
3th = 1200-1000 BC (Sabians / Zarathustrians)
2nd = 1400 BC-1200 BC
1st = 1600 BC-1400 BC (Early Jews)
"0-hour" = 1800 BC-1600 BC. ("Early in the morning he went", not actually INSIDE first hour, Jewish religion was practically born only after Jacob etc. in 1600 BC-1400 BC)


Well, Jesus did not go to practice math in schools. This is not math-exam, but for people to understand some idea. And maybe he being just a human, who makes errors and has somewhat limited knowledge, is reason also to why there is least "error-marginal" (+ - inside 200 years) in places of parallel connected to himself and Christianity.

 More questions for Christians refusing this interpretation:

Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that ALSO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "early in the morning" and in "third" hour as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).

 

CHRISTIANS (and all others), BE HONEST AND THINK THIS:

 

If it would have been case that prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) "put into Koran" these "People of the Book"-nations just to match it with these parallels, why he did not mention about this connection even with a single word?

He tried to get Jews and Christians to accept Islam with so much effort, wouldn´t this kind of using of their own writings had been most efficient way to do that?

Of course he (peace be upon him) knew connection, he was a prophet. But there is principles more important, and in Islam it is simply about accepting that there is only one God and one God only. And about accepting all the prophets. Simple as that. Either you believe it (=Allah will make you believe it), or you don´t. Nothing else matters.

Everything else is just extra.

And of course it might have been also case that realizing these parallels were meant to happen in this time, when high literature, internet, media and television offers all possible information about Islam, so everybody will have to choose their religion, there is no excuses anymore (but for few "people without knowledge", like children’s, disabled persons, or people living in remote corners of Africa/Asia/Jungles where there is no information about Islam).

Allah most probably saved (at least most of) f.ex. Medieval Christians, who could not even read Bible, but were dictated by priests who also kept them without information about Islam and even gave false information about it (f.ex. about "worshipping Mohammed himself as a god").

 

It is time, my friends. For some reason this part has come for me to carry on.

 

Jesus prophesied Islam also in the Gospel of Luke, also in form of parallel with “time-schedule” and calculations, even Diaspora of Jews and ending of Judaism (and its branch Christianity) from “list” of right religions:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6446& ; ; ;PN=2

 

Other prophecies of Jesus in Bible:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6445& ; ; ;PN=2

 

 

Isaiah prophesied Christianity and Islam:

http://www.southafrica.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6126

JESUS GAVE WARNING ABOUT " APOSTLE " PAUL ( AND MODERN CHRISTIANITY ) WITH DESCRIPTIONS GOING ALONG WITH HIS (PAUL´S) WORDS AND ACTIONS:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/index.blog?topic_id=102 1117
About science and history compared to Qur´an and Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 12:37pm
Hello Kariim25,

I would be happy to engage your exegesis, but since you are Muslim I cannot assume you accept all of the Christian New Testament as scripture.  I need to know the extent of your belief in the New Testament and I will attempt to limit my discussion to the pericopes which we both agree are authentic.

I am certainly pleased you accept at least part of Matthew as scripture, but what other parts of this particular gospel do you believe are also divinely inspired?  Do you also accept parts of other biblical texts?  Please advise.


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Kariim25
 
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Quote Kariim25 Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 1:41pm
I give you an example:

In Qur´an there is no single word about something in a style like "then he went to Bethamy". There is no list of anybody´s ancestors. It is your God who is speaking there. And only He.

Jesus did not mention anything about "divinely inspired writings", neither did God. Jesus did not even ask to write anything about him. He was just teaching local Jews. God never said that Bible is completely his Word, or affected by Him, not even Jesus. In Qur´an God said. World is full of people even today who are totally convinced  by themselves that they have "divine message" or right to do anything they like because it is how God guided him (Bush is good example).

So FOCUS only into what Jesus said in the Bible. Not into descriptions, not into anybody´s interpretations, not into writings of apostles (all those have most likely have had chance to be changed/corrupted, as Jesus has been so respected, that only those who have not believed, or have wanted to use those for other agendas like into gaining power, have even dared to change his words. Of course even there might be errors just because words of Jesus have been recorded decades after he went away, he did not order to write anything).

Rest is up to interpretation and also about your will, how you want to believe. I as former monotheistic "christian" know that (I simply started to realize whole Bible suddently, and could not understood how I did not see it before, but I was "blind"), everything you use to interpretate to support divinity of Jesus, can be very easily interpretated and understood in totally different ways, in fact in most cases your interpretation contains several weak links and contradictions compared to other parts of Bible, I recommend for you to read rest of my writings. I QUARANTEE, that what ever you throw from Bible as an evidence supporting christianity, can be easily explained in more simple ways.

They just were not THE man. Jesus was. He is only one that matters. Not some church-fathers who decided 300 years later about trinity and about what gospels are allowed. Humans make mistakes, prophets make less mistakes.

Islam and Koran teaches that Bible is corrupted. But it is not COMPLETELY corrupted, there is lots of real stuff too. It even might be in slightly different form, but still. I as a Muslim have only win-win situation when interpretating Bible, my faith is not depended on it (but about Koran/Islam/Experiences about life and history), but two completely different sources confirming each others are quite convinsing.

But Christians can not use Qur´an to support their religion. I think that alone tell´s quite a lot what kind of God we are dealing with, and what is His Will. Do you really think that good Muslim-believer will go to hell because Jesus did not "bother" to say anywhere that he is "god" or that he should be "worshipped, but instead gave lots of proof for Muslims in Bible about his prophethood and about worshipping ONE GOD by BOWING (he also ordered these to others to be followed).

Jesus told that he had not come to abolish laws, that nothing of it would be abandoned untill heaven and earth will disappear, but to fullfil it. Now again, we come to interpretations. You think "to fullfil" means finishing something, making it absolute. We Muslims think that Jesus was so good that he COULD fullfil it, compared to pharisees for example:

Matt.5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

There is contradiction:


You christians think that Jesus fulfilled law so that it would not have to be observed anymore. So in other words it would be abolished.

But Jesus said that it will not be, and that it will not even change. How do you explain that? Reason is simple, it is here:

20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is about ways of following laws, and of course Jesus as an almost perfect human being (prophet, or for you a god) fulfilled law as well as it could be fulfilled. He gave us an example to follow.

Otherwise he would have been speaking against his own words, "Do not judge and you will not be judged", do you think that he would have had any right to criticise following of law(s) by other people if he would not have been perfect in it by himself?

Did you notice 5:19? "Apostle" Paul f.ex. denied circumsition, and demanded generally abandoning of the law. What you think "called lowest in heavens" would mean? CALLED BY ONE´S IN HEAVENS TO BE IN LOWEST HELL.

Edited by Kariim25
About science and history compared to Qur´an and Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 2:07pm
Thank you.  This is going to be interesting.  I hope BMZ joins in!

One quickie -  which hadith were you referencing here:

[Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"]
David C.
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Quote Kariim25 Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 3:15pm
I think that biggest mistakes Muslims have ever made have been totally neglegting Jesus and bible, even though he is most mentioned prophet in Koran. There is reason for it. He is foundation for Islam, he completely changed world. More than you could ever even imagine. Do you see this progress and what ever is around you? It would not be there without Jesus. You would most propably be living under world-power of Romans, bowing to rulers as god´s. Jesus was one to split Rome into East and West through religious (and through it between emperor and pope political) differences, and Islam took East-Rome (and North-Africa, formely Roman area). Do you really think that few thousand Arab warriors would have had any chances against united and strong Rome?

I believe INTO ALL THE PROPHETS, as demanded in Islam. So if I do not believe into Jesus (there is no mention about believing into divinity of him), I will not get into heaven, but only through him (and others, even later prophets, like Mohammmed, pbuh). Just as Jesus said. He just were spoking about his time and few centuries forward (especially for Jews, as he said he was send to them only), not about time 600 years later (just in case if you wanna focus into "ONLY through me", even though that would also fit anyway into my belief about demand to follow ALL prophets).

Have you ever considered what kind of world this would be without Jesus, and especially without Christianity? Pagans would rule Europe, Africa and America. There would not be one God, but several god´s. Not our moral codes, but human sacrifices so that sun would come up again next morning (etc.). No Abraham, no prophets.

In Asia, home for 60% of humans (where Islam has 33% of population, and Christianity only about 2%) things are different, except hinduism there is no god´s (f.ex. in buddhism, but in India more than 20% of population is Muslims, spreaded everywhere, even though government tries to say it is smaller proportion, from fear of loosing power). In Asia many philosophies (f.ex. confuism) and behaviour/habits fit well along with Islam. In Japan they take their shoes of, just like going into mosque. They make ritual wash, just like in mosque. They bow their foreheads in their knees. But for what? Only God is missing. In Asia many too make pilgrimages, but by crawling for years. And if you there believe into God, Islam is most closest and logical option. You can even fit belief into Allah with many other religions and habits, because there is nothing to replace. Christianity was not needed there.

What would Africa be like? Expansion of Islam was stopped into rainforest-belt and into East Africa for centuries, untill christians came and conquered continent, creating unified countries (connecting in East-, West-, and Central Africa areas dominated by Muslims to areas of non-Muslims, inside same borders, instead of small hostile and intolerate tribal-states). Immigration movement has mixed populations together, especially Muslims in West- and Central-Africa are escaping desertification to coastal-areas and cities, into this rainforest-belt, where Muslim "missionaries" used to evade spear throwing tribalists.
Numerous Africans "converted" to Islam, as they saw it as an opposition to colonial powers. Those who were converted to christianity were mostly pagans, because Muslim have to be very stupid or totally without knowledge to do that: It is just one look into words of Jesus even in the beginning of the Bible, like "God you shall worship, and God alone" (Luke 4:8), or "Your God, is one God" (Mark.12:29). Jesus bowing into prayer on his forehead in last parts of gospels is just final nail to box, god praying for himself?

And these pagans converted to christianity are now much more closer to Islam in religious, ideologial, cultural, moral and political sence (westernization has done same for Japan too).

How about America? Muslims definitely "found" America first, there is short way from western coast of Africa to "tip" of Brazil, and ocean and wind currents are carrying into that direction. After all, Muslims (traders) were travelling by ships into Korea, China and Japan very soon after birth of Islam. In southern areas as Indonesia you can not see North Star, they knew earth was round. Why did not Muslims stay in America? Muslims had already in 8th-century hospitals where different infectious diseases had separate apartments to avoid epidemics, they knew diseases were spreaded through "invisible organisms". When they arrived, people started to die into diseases (later Spanish used that as a weapon). There was no economical, political, or religious reason to stay there (people without knowledge about Islam are saved anyway).

Why do you think that Arabs started to spread rumours in Islamic Spain about sea-monsters and borders of world? To protect "Indians". They saw from christian reconquista (slowly approaching southern Spain), and from crusaders, what could happen there too.

But what if this reconquista would have failed? Arabs would have focused on rest of Europe, France in general. Columbus would not have had christian Spanish rulers to support his expedition (it was made much for sake of spreading christianity). Some trading posts in America could have been possible at some point after centuries, but Inca´s / Aztec´s ruler-god´s would have controlled whole continent by then. So christianity did dirty work, again. For benefit of Muslims now immigrating / "converting" there.

If you take a look into history, Muslims have done lots of bad things. But thank God there is christians. What Muslims have done can not be even compared to them. 100 million dead in 20th-century alone caused by christian cultures and societies (do NOT say "those were not real christians", they were product of that backround and uprising).

Even Koran said that people believe how they are teached to believe, or how they wanna believe. Allah has chosen some to be born into right religion, when their only mission is to hold on to it, and some others into these most funniest religions and places, where their test is just to find that right religion (I bet you christians agree too, if we put Jesus into beginning of sentence).

Do you know what REALLY is funny? Vasgo Da Gama thought he had found christians when he landed on India. He thought their temples as churches, and their god-statues as saints (that is also one reason why Indians have been difficult to convert to christianity, they just accepted Jesus as one god among thousands of others that had "visited earth", even "trinity" supported that, Muslims never had that problem). Then he noticed "YOU TOO have Moors (Muslims) here!!!", and decided to "rescue" them. When he arrived to Europe, his number one on a list to King and pope about why India should be conquered, was reason that "we would have opportunity to kill Muslims". After that, massive armadas armed with cannons destroyed all unarmed massive trade-fleets on Indian Ocean, which was totally surrounded and under control of Muslims (that is why these ships did not have weapons, there were no danger). We can see affects of that even today in economical underdevelopement of that area, where lives 2 billion people.

Can you see irony in it? Can you see BIG picture? Can you fit christianity and other religions in it? Impossible, but even try to imagine "how would God do?" (Americans just say "how would Jesus do?", even though nowadays it is "who would Jesus bombard?")......
About science and history compared to Qur´an and Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
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Quote Kariim25 Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by DavidC

Thank you.  This is going to be interesting.  I hope BMZ joins in!

One quickie -  which hadith were you referencing here:

[Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"]


I am not a dictionary. I can not even remember street-address next to my street. But I remember what I need to, and it is there.

You can ask it from somebody else (by the way, there is over 2 million hadiths...).
 
About science and history compared to Qur´an and Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
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Quote Kariim25 Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 3:28pm
World is just a funny place.

I concider this "God-humour" (history,etc.) to be one of most biggest proofs on behalf of existence of God.

Now only thing you have to ask yourself is: Which God?

Do you think that God causing suffering (through diseases, natural catastrofies, bloody World Wars, bloody wars between protestants and catholics, bloody hundred-year war...) is "Jesus-loves-you-all"-god or Allah? I would consider that attitudes (through writing styles analyzed) of God in Old Testament would alone point into later one...
About science and history compared to Qur´an and Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2006 at 4:28pm
This website has a hadith search.  I tried first & last and did not turn up anything that sounds like what you remember. Would you please search and see if I missed something? 

Now to Matthew.  You have an interesting hypothesis that MAY fit, but do you have any evidence? I don't understand how you arrived at your timeline, or what links it to known facts or scripture.

So far, you have produced an elegant theory that is unsupported.  The bible says Jesus always addressed the crowds in parables, but that he would explain the parables to the Apostles later. 

Mark 4:10 ¶ And as soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.
Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.

Direct quote of Jesus here.  My question is if the parable you mention was meant to indicate Muhummad, why did Jesus not share that meaning with the Apostles?

Now Jesus used agricultural metaphors all the time.  I am going to investigate the use of agricultural metaphor in Matthew, and in the other gospels.  Don't you agree that will produce an interpretation which maintains an internal relevance and consistency?

I will return with that, and hopefully you can find the hadith through our search function and explain the basis of your conjecture.
David C.
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