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mochiah
 
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Quote mochiah Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2007 at 9:54am

 

Yeshayahu - Chapter 21

with commentary of Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki)

(1040-1105 C.E.)

 

1. The harsh prophecy of the western desert; like tempests in an arid land, to pass, coming from the desert, from an awesome land.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert This prophecy refers to Babylonia, as is delineated therein. If you ask, Did he not already prophesy about it (supra 13): "On a tranquil mountain raise a banner," and the entire chapter? sometimes the prophecy comes into his mouth today in one manner, and later in another manner.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert Jonathan paraphrases: A harsh prophecy concerning the armies that come from the desert, as numerous as the waters of the sea.

like tempests in arid land, to pass Like a tempest that whirls in an arid land, that raises much dust.

to pass So will many camps pass to come upon Babylon.

from the desert they shall come to them (lit.. to her).

from an awesome land Jonathan renders: From a land where mighty deeds have been performed. It is also possible to explain that it is a place of snakes and scorpions, as it is said (Deut. 8:15): "The great and awesome desert."

2. A harsh prophecy was told to me; The traitor shall be betrayed and the plunderer shall be plundered; march, O Elam, Besiege, O Media! All sighs have I brought to an end.

A harsh prophecy The prophet says, "This harsh prophecy concerning Babylon was told to me."

the traitor shall be betrayed Jonathan renders: The robbers are robbed and the plunderers are plundered. The Hebrew wording, according to the Targum, is to be explained thus: The traitor another will come and betray him; and the plunderer another will come and plunder him. These are Persia and Media, who rob and plunder Babylon, who, until now plundered and robbed all the countries.

march, Elam and come upon them (lit., her).

besiege, O Media (). I.e., besiege Babylon with a siege. Comp. (II Sam. 22:3) "God is my rock ()." The accent is on the latter syllable, on the "resh," whereas, in this case, the accent is on the first syllable, like "rise ()", "return ()."

all sighs have I brought to an end (). (This is) not (spelled with a) "Mappiq heh," (which would mean "her sigh") for this is like "all sighs in the world," and it is an expression denoting a great sigh of many people (sospiradic in O.F.). All sighs have I brought to an end, for the world was sighing because of the yoke of the kingdom of Babylon; now I have brought it to an end.

3. Therefore, my loins are filled with trembling; pangs have seized me like the pangs of a woman in labor; I have become confused from hearing; I have become frightened from hearing.

my loins are filled with trembling The prophet is merciful and sighs over the retribution meted out to the nations. This is the Midrash Aggadah (Tan., beginning of Balak). According to its simple meaning, however, the prophet is reciting the lamentation and the mourning as though this were Babylonia lamenting.

pangs (), an expression denoting trembling and pains. And our Rabbis said: A woman has doors and hinges () on her womb just as the doors of a house have hinges (Bechoroth 45a).

I became confused This is a malady known as , convulsions, in the language of the Sages.

4. My heart has strayed; fright has terrified me; the evening of my desire He has made for me into trembling.

fright (). fright.

the evening of my desire The night that I longed for, for rejoicing and for a banquet. In the Book of Josipon we find that he was happy since his troops had defeated the army of Persia. (Book 1, ch. 5) That night He made for me into trembling, as it is said (Dan. 5:1): "King Belshazzar made a great feast They drank wine(verse 4). On that very night, King Belshazzar was slain(verse 30)." (6:1) "And Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

5. Setting the table, setting up the lamp, eating, drinking; "Arise, princes, anoint a shield!"

setting up the lamp (), Set up the lamp. In Gen. Rabbah (63:14) we learn that people call a lamp .

eating, drinking And in the midst of the eating and the drinking, they cried, "Arise, princes!"

anoint a shield They were shields of boiled leather, and they would anoint them with oil so that the weapons would glide off. The same is mentioned concerning Saul (II Sam. 1:21): "For there the shield of the mighty was rejected." It rejected its anointing and did not absorb it, and Sauls shield became as though it was not anointed with oil.

6. For so has the Lord said to me, "Go, set up the lookout; what he sees he will tell.

Go set up the lookout One of your disciples is destined to complain about My attribute, concerning the long prosperity of Babylon, and that was Habakkuk who made a circle and stood inside it, and said (Habakkuk 2:1), "On my watch will I stand, and I will look out to see what He will speak within me." Said the Holy One, blessed be He, "Put up that lookout and promise him in My Name that he will stand on his watch and what he sees in the downfall of Babylon he will tell."

7. And he shall see a chariot with a pair of riders; one riding a horse and one riding a camel, and he shall listen attentively.

And he shall see a chariot and I will show him there a sort of chariot with a pair of riders, one riding a donkey and one riding a camel, and that is a sign of Persia and Media.

and he shall listen attentively And there he shall hear in his prophecy a representation of the mighty rumbling and stirring of armies.

8. And the lion called, "On the watchtower, O Lord, I always stand by day, and on my watch I stand all the nights.

And the lion called That is Habakkuk. (lion) has the same numerical value as Habakkuk. Isaiah prophesied that Habakkuk was destined to pray for this and say the following.

on the watchtower, O Lord O Lord, my God, I always stand on the watchtower to inform me about this.

9. And behold this is coming, a chariot of men, a pair of riders." And he called out and said, "Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen, and all its graven idols he has dashed to the earth."

And behold this is coming When he prays concerning this, he will see sort of a chariot of men, etc.

Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen Jonathan renders: Has fallen and is also destined to fall. This denotes two downfalls in two consecutive years, first through Media and Persia, and in the second year, through Heaven, as it is stated (supra 13:19): "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms, the glory of the pride of the Chaldees, shall be like Gods overturning of Sodom" And so we find in Seder Olam (ch. 28): And in that year the news came concerning Darius, and after him, in the year, the news, "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms shall be like the overturning, etc." (supra 13:19).

10. My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor. What I heard from the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, I have related to you.

My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor My hallowed grain, the stack of wheat which I was commanded by the Holy Spirit to rectify you and lead you on the straight path, like a man who threshes and winnows his grain on the threshing floor.

What I heard from Him I have related to you.

11. The harsh prophecy of Dumah: To me one calls from Seir, "Watchman, what will be of the night? Watchman, what will be of the night?"

The harsh prophecy of Dumah That is Edom, and so does Scripture say (Ezekiel 27:32): "Who is like Tyre, like Dumah in the midst of the sea?"

To Me one calls from Seir Said the Holy One, blessed be He: "To Me the prophet or the angel calls from the yoke of the kingdom of Seir."

Watchman, what will be of the night? Watcher of Israel, what will be of this night and this darkness?

12. Said the watchman, "Morning has come, and also night. If you will request, request. Return and come."

Said the watchman The Holy One, blessed be He.

Morning has come I have the ability to make the morning shine for you.

and also night is prepared for the wicked at the time of the end.

if you will request, request If you make your request to hasten the end of the exile.

return and come in repentance.

13. The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia: In the forest in Arabia did you lodge, on the roads of your cousins.

The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia About the Arabs.

In the forest in Arabia did you lodge I saw what you did when Assyria exiled my people, and they begged their captors to lead them through your land, since you are the descendants of their uncles, perhaps you would have mercy on them, and you were going out and lodging in the forest, the road where the caravans pass.

the roads of your cousins the children of your uncle.

14. Toward the thirsty they bring water; the inhabitants of the land of Tema with his bread they came before the wanderer.

Toward the thirsty it is customary to bring water, but you, the inhabitants of the land of Tema, did not do so, but with his bread they came before the wanderer; they brought them sorts of salty foods and blown up flasks full of air, and he would eat and ask to drink, and he would put the opening of the flask into his mouth, and the air would go into his innards, and he would die. Another explanation of "Toward the thirsty they bring water," is as follows: I did not do so to your forefather, Ishmael; when he was thirsty, I revealed to him a well of water.

Since because of the swords they wandered (I.e.,) my people (wandered).

the outstretched sword () , spread over the surface of the earth, as (I Sam. 30:16) "And behold, they were scattered () over the entire landscape," (II Sam. 5:18) "And spread out () in the Valley of Rephaim." Another explanation is that is like , sharp. All letters whose sources are close to being from one place, (i.e., from one speech organ,) are interchangeable with one another, the nun with the lamed, as in the case stated (in Nehemiah 13:7): "To make him a chamber ()," like .

15. For, because of the swords they wandered; because of the outstretched sword, because of the bent bow, and because of the pressure of war.

16. For so has the Lord said to me: "In another year, like the days of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar shall terminate.

like the year of a hireling I will be exact with them to limit the time like a hireling, hired by years, who is exact with the time of the completion of his year.

17. And the rest of the number of the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar shall decrease, for the Lord, the God of Israel has spoken."

And the rest the remnant.

the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar Archers, for they are like their forefather, (Ishmael,) about whom it is stated (Gen. 21: 2): "And he was an archer."



Edited by mochiah
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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2007 at 9:35pm

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote mochiah Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2007 at 4:54am
Originally posted by Andalus

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

No not with less evidence , with evidence that goes against their belief!!!!

The whole bible(tanach) preaches monoteisme and goes against that roman pagan belief that jesus is g*d!!!!!!!!

Jesus never meant to become a false diety!!! He believed that the tanach could be exported to non Israelites!!! He was a Profet as Mohamad for non Israelites!! To bring us closer to the messianic age!!

Because it is needed that people would be monotheistic and would know the principles of the tanach to bring us to that point that all people of the world would be united!

Imagine the world today without jesus or mohamad: All the world would still believe in plural gods!! Would not have heard of all the Profets,....

Imagine the messiah coming then and him trying to explain!!!

It would have been much much more harder for people to understand!! Than it is now and look how hard it is even now!!

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Quote Doo-bop Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2007 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

I think you will find, Andalus, that the thread is about Muhammad in the Bible, not Jesus 

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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2007 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

I think you will find, Andalus, that the thread is about Muhammad in the Bible, not Jesus 

It does not have to be to show that the fallacy of special pleading has been commited.

But, I say that I do not agree with some of the arguments used to make the case by some Muslims. I think you and I can agree on that.

 



Edited by Andalus
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Quote Doo-bop Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2007 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:-

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......"

--Quran 7: 157 

In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 4:21am
Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Doo-bop

Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

 

Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:-

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......"

--Quran 7: 157 

In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

And what?

1)      If this was implausible, even in the slightest way, then why did this not become a point that the many detractors could have used against the claims of the prophet (saw) when this verse was revealed? There were Christians and Jews, and no where in the Hadith literature do we find this as a point of contention.

2)      The does not necessarily state that his name will be mentioned, it only states that his claim will be found. This claim includes the attributes of prophethood.

3)      Since the idea of what constitutes a bible is not necessarily the same thing as what people had in the 6th and 7th century, one can assume that the bible before them is the same as it was in the 6th and 7th century.

 



Edited by Andalus
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Quote Sawtul Khilafah Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2007 at 6:50am
Originally posted by Doo-bop

Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:-

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......"

--Quran 7: 157 

In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

 

The correct translation for the Arabic word "ummi" (unlettered) used in the verse is said to be GENTILE (non-Israelite).

But the manner in which this expression is thrown into this verse and the next raises the conjecture, which with us amounts to an opinion, that this appellation came originally from the Jews, who used it in expressing their contempt for the Gentile prophet, the term Ummi meaning Gentile in the technical sense. (Wherry, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Qur'an, Vol. 2, p. 237).

Another writer says much the same thing:

    Postulating that prophecy was the exclusive privilege of Israel, they refused to recognise the claims of the omni, 'gentile' prophet. (Lammens, Islam: Beliefs and Institutions, p. 28).

    Even Jewish Rabbis who have studied the Quran say this:

      Rabbi Abraham Geiger, however, has clearly shown that the word rendered unlettered in this verse really means "Gentile", as opposed to Jewish. (Tisdall, The Original Sources of the Qur'an, p. 131).
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .And I mentioned on my last post the prophecy in Isaiah Chapter 21:
      Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

      There is also a very intresting prophecy in the book of Isaiah:

       

      For thus said the Lord unto me: `Go, station the watchman, That which he seeth let him declare.'

      And he hath seen a chariot -- a couple of horsemen, The rider of an ass, the rider of a camel, And he hath given attention -- He hath increased attention!

      And he crieth -- a lion, `On a watch-tower my lord, I am standing continually by day, And on my ward I am stationed whole nights.

      And lo, this, the chariot of a man is coming, A couple of horsemen.' And he answereth and saith: `Fallen, fallen hath Babylon, And all the graven images of her gods He hath broken to the earth.

      O my threshing, and the son of my floor, That which I heard from Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, I have declared to you!'

      The burden of Dumah. Unto me is [one] calling from Seir `Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?'

      The watchman hath said, `Come hath morning, and also night, If ye inquire, inquire ye, turn back, come.'

      The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim.

      To meet the thirsty brought water have Inhabitants of the land of Tema, With his bread they came before a fugitive.

      For from the face of destructions they fled, From the face of a stretched-out sword, And from the face of a trodden bow, And from the face of the grievousness of battle.

      For thus said the Lord unto me: `Within a year, as years of a hireling, Consumed hath been all the honour of Kedar.

      And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken!'

      (Bible: Old Testament: Isaiah 21: 6-17)

      The above Prophecy mentions the coming of riders on horses, then the rider of an ass/donkey and then the rider of a Camel.


      " A couple of horsemen.' And he answereth and saith: `Fallen, fallen hath Babylon, And all the graven images of her gods He hath broken to the earth. O my threshing, and the son of my floor, That which I heard from Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, I have declared to you!' "

      There is no doubt that Cyrus and his army rode on horses, and ofcourse one of their greatest victories was the conquest of Babylon and freeing the Jews from it's idol worshipping oppressive rulers.

       

      The one riding an ass is clearly the Messiah, 'Eesa (Jesus) peace be upon him. (There are more prophecies in the Old Testament that mention the Messiah coming, riding on an Ass/Donkey.)
      There is some explanation given regarding the rider on the Ass:


      "The burden of Dumah. Unto me is [one] calling from Seir `Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?'

      The watchman hath said, `Come hath morning, and also night, If ye inquire, inquire ye, turn back, come.' "

      Intrestingly, in Deutronomy verse 31, there is another prophecy regarding Jesus ('Eesa) which also associates him with Seir.

       

      Finally there is a prophecy about the coming of a man from Arabia, riding on a Camel:

      The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim.

      To meet the thirsty brought water have Inhabitants of the land of Tema, With his bread they came before a fugitive.

      For from the face of destructions they fled, From the face of a stretched-out sword, And from the face of a trodden bow, And from the face of the grievousness of battle.

      For thus said the Lord unto me: `Within a year, as years of a hireling, Consumed hath been all the honour of Kedar.

      And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken!

      It mentions an Arab fugitive who must be helped by other tribes. This fugitive has fled from other Arabs (Kedar) who wanted to kill him. This prophecy sounds just like the historical Hijrah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who left Meccah after it's people tried to kill him, and went to Madinah along with Hazrat Abu Bakr, both riding on Camels. When they entered Madinah, the people there helped him, gave him food and water, as Prophecised. It also prophecises the fall of Kedar (those Arabs who opposed the "fugitive").

       

      The Bible makes it clear that Kedar and Tema (the two tribes mentioned in Isaiah 21) are the sons of Ishmael:

       

      and these [are] the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their births: first-born of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

      and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, 15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.

      (Bible: Old Testament: Genesist 25:13)

       

      So we conclude that Isaiah chapter 21 is actually prophecising the coming of Cyrus/DhulQarnayn, Jesus/'Eesa, and Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon them) who came in the exact same order as mentioned in the prophecy.

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