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Message Icon Topic: What if America Left? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Hanan
 
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Quote Hanan Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2006 at 10:14am

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Edited by Hanan
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ops154
 
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Quote ops154 Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2006 at 1:31pm

Ok guys I understand what you are saying but I still have to stress that we played the Go it alone card before and it has come back to bite us big time so why in the world do it again?

 

I look at it like WWI we left hitler in office and we ended up with WWII, we cut ties to Japan and they bombed Pearl Harbor, we up and left Afghanistan and we ended up with the Taliban and OBL. Why do people really think that ignoring a problem will make it go away somehow? I have listed just three example of where we up and left it or decided not to get involved and it was some of the worst losses America has ever suffered so why do it again? Can anyone, since Hanan has once again ignored my questions, please post some real reasons to not get involved. I even read one post above where I was told "we created the taliban" well that is exactly what I am talking about yet so many on this board will not look to history and see that pulling out has been tried before and it failed.

 

America is always told to mind her own business yet you all support other muslims from other countries that go and fight in other countries other than thier own so why the hypocrisy? Does that mean whenever any western country is attacked that Americans have a right and duty to go and help that nation no matter who it may be?



Edited by ops154
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2006 at 3:40pm

Hanan Amen to that! I hear it all the time from everyone from hospitals that they feel the same way as you do about that! I for one totally agree with you.

Ops...You have to understand that in some situations including the ones that we are currently in thatpeople have to make their own decisions even if it the decision to destroy themselves. I understand now that we (even ideally and remotely we go in with an altruistic impression) can do more harm than good. Even if the average American believed that we were in there for good reason (although it is probably not) the ultimate decisions of what w do militarily is up to the Chief of ALL decisions-the President.

Ops in some strange way I'm an idealist as you are. I believe that there are corrupt dictatorships in the world but we cannot save everyone just like myself, as a police officer I know I wont be able to save everyone. Today I did 8 hours  in the jail system adn there are many gang members and drug dealers that definitely deserve to rot in the jails and there are some who are out in the streets. I'd like to get all these predators. But we cannot get them all and we cannot rehabilitate every drug user. One thing about my job is that you can be an idealist but its unrealistic to maintain that mindset, I understand that now. Everyone cannot be saved and everyone sometimes, doesn't want to be saved. Remember that!

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Duende
 
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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 8:48am
Ops said:
"I would guess that the terrorists in Iraq has killed more civilians than
the US since they actually target the local Iraq's who are trying to
make the best of themselves by getting jobs and such but since
nutjob with a bomb thinks they should not be working for the
current government that they deserve to die. Of course no one seems
to ever talk about that part of the war."

Your guess is not welcome, check it out first. No way have
terrorists yet hit the numbers quoted by independent observers, of
colateral deaths caused by the American invasion.

And why did the nutjobs start suicide bombing in the first place?
Because their country was overrun by American troops who were
dedicating their time to humiliating the population, dragging
'suspects' out of their houses, bagging them and torturing them, just
as an example. What part of the war is it no one seems to be talking
about? Did terrorism exist in iraq before the US went in there? (In
case you're having difficulty with that one, the answer is NO.)
Ops said:

"I look at it like WWI we left hitler in office and we ended up with
WWII, we cut ties to Japan and they bombed Pearl Harbor,"
That's a nice way to look at it Ops. Hitler who? You mean Hitler was
in office at the end of WW1?

You cut ties with japan you say. Here's another version: It was
actually the freezing of all Japanese assets by FDR in late June 1941
which cut off Japan's oil supply. Japan tried to negotiate, the U.S
rejected all offers (sounds like the situation with Had-me-dinner-
yet). America demanded that Japan withdraw troops from China and
Indochina, and relinquish all conquests since 1937, effectively
abrogating the Tripartate treaty Japan held with Germany and Italy,
before they would lift the embargo. This was taken as an ultimatum
by Japan who saw the sun setting on their Empire. Japan decided to
go for the vital oil in Indonesia and in order to reach it, they had to
eliminate the US fleet at Pearl harbour.

The upshot of all that was that by drawing Japan into WW2 America
got to test its new toys: in Nagasaki and Hiroshima and people in
Japan are still suffering the consequences. Oh yes, but America did
establish itself as a Super Power, and proceeded to brain wash the
world that it was in fact the Nice Guy on the block.

Israfil displays such fine sentiments: let them get on with destroying
themselves. Particularly chilling sentiments since it was American
foreign policy which largely got them into the mess they're in now.
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Hanan
 
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Quote Hanan Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 10:35am

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Edited by Hanan
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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 11:58am

I'd like to discuss this idea.......

It's quite interesting that many advocates who are against the war want the U.S out and many advocates for the war want the U.S to finish. But more a fair question to ask is as of now what if America left Iraq and Afghanistan? What would happen?

 

My absolutely loveable Israfil, you are a law enforcement officer.

Shall we say that “A” has raped a young nubile girl, in your precinct. Now, am I correct in saying that it still remains a crime even if all the Gangster’s householders (the Americans) begin to feel that it’s “unpatriotic” to accept it as a crime?

 

What do you suggest?

Shall we now ask the poor girl to keep lying down and to start enjoying it?

 

The rapist holds a grand plan for her.

He is going to make it possible for her to be stripped naked and raped all hours (through Law 29) by his friends’ corporation and without as much as pausing to notice a sob from her.

 

He has taken pains to eradicate her mother, her father, all her brothers are lying in the morgue and her sisters are running away in different directions (poor little Arab heads of states!)

 

He has hired 23000 civilian contractors to take care of the neighbourhood.

 

He is trying to install a new governess (seen the elections!) to train her in the etiquette of being raped at ease and with absolute pleasure. Yet the idiot is struggling to flee and keeps banging her head against stonewalls. The world listens to her shrieks, keeps quiet.

 

And, the precinct officers keep very busy at their crossword puzzles!

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 12:13pm

It would also be good to charge America for the destruction and chaos it has brought to the country and region as a whole... Oh, and they could have Saddam as a take-away memorabilia.

Brother, thanks for such a generous offer. You could throw Karzai in as well. I won't mind. 

 

The situation in Afghanistan is:

This time there are no excuses. Every scrap of intelligence warned the government not to fight a war against insurgency in south Afghanistan. Ask the CIA, MI6, the former service chiefs Lord Inge and Lord Guthrie, and Nato allies who thought the then defence secretary, John Reid, was mad. Ask the Americans, who were losing more men than in Iraq and were wisely withdrawing. Read the reports published throughout 2004/5 that the Taliban were back in strength. These were veteran guerrillas, well armed, who could count on the tacit support of tens of thousands of tribal militias. What made Tony Blair think he could beat them with just 4,000 soldiers? The Soviets lost with 120,000.

The Russians had warned the US not to go in Afghanistan.

That is my view, dear brother. In my view, with the "best of intentions", both Iraq and Afghanistan are failures and would remain so.

BMZ

 

Prophetic, but just a bit difficult for our friends from the reasoning quarter to understand.

It is none of the American business to remain in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. Let the population there decide what they want !!

Kashif

 

Yaar, if the bullies let the world to its own then who will pay them the tributes?

Exactly and likewise the cost of rebuilding Lebanon should be charged to Israel and come from the coffers of Israel. Why should others pay?

Best Regards

BMZ

 

Brother, not just that. We must have exactly the same compensation for each person as is fixed for Americans loss: $7 million. Isn’t it racist to accept something like £3512 pounds for 16 Iraqis killed?

 

I started to notice that no one in the middle east wants to accept responsibility for thier own actions.

 

Each time a proper and honest Mid East peace proposal was put before the UN who vetoed it? Have a guess. When you find that out, my friend, we will talk.

 

I would guess that the terrorists in Iraq has killed more civilians than the US since they actually target the local Iraq's who are trying to make the best of themselves by getting jobs and such but since nutjob with a bomb thinks they should not be working for the current government that they deserve to die. Of course no one seems to ever talk about that part of the war.

 

Please start a string for that and, I am sure, many would like to discuss your favourite topic with you.

 

This string is about the US should get out of there even in their own national interest.

 

It seems to me that, despite the loud proclamations of being anti-Bush and his racist government, many posters do support his agenda and repeat everything I’ve heard the neo-cons and others say.

Hanan, the Neo-Con in the common man’s skin is the most dangerous variety.

 

Why is it so important to some of our forum members that the US should remain in Iraq?

For the supremacy of the most sacred flag on our earth.

 

What has America done to prevent the killings?

The killings are part of the US agenda

– to partition Iraq and + as an excuse for their stay.

 

What has America done to further democracy and freedom in any of the countries it has ravaged for it’s own financial and ideological gain?

The American interests in the world and democracy don’t mix.

But, believe you me, the US had done all that could ever be done for MacDemocracy.

 

Does America, and it’s defenders on this forum, have a plan?

Yes, a very profitable “Party Plan”.

 

I will love you for your honesty.

That’s very sad. Who said honest was a profitable or a smart thing?

 

In case you didn't know the British lost the war and that is why they pulled out. Otherwise I think the war would of kept on going.

I am glad that the Americans won it in Eyrak and Afgaanistan!

 

I agree that America has no business with the affairs of oither countries and although I don't like playing super hero to a lost cause I think the case with the United States
intervening was "cause and effect."
I promise, I sincerely wish I could believe that world history wasn’t there before 9/11.

 

Although we may not see it in the media or ever see it I believe that there are some
sectors of these countries where people are flourishing whereas before they wouldn't have.

Very true, in today’s Iraq, the morgue is the most flourishing business we could ever have. I have been tempted to float a company in this sector.

 

Democracy, freedom, education, love, peace, sandy beaches and rock'n'roll is utter puff.

And, absolute bluff!

And leaders, in most of todays world, have become synonymous with corrupt’… only that some wear suit and tie, others military uniform and yet others tribal robes.

Brother, leader is mis-spelt.

The word is “Lidder” – who keeps the lid on the truth and on the populace’s brains.

 

Now you know why I miss you when you disappear?

 

We are being terrorized by manufacturers of drugs (meth labs, ect.), drug dealers, gangs, blue/white collar crimes, just to name a few. Instead of spending millions on kick-backs to politicians and billions to devastate foreign countries, we should raise the pay-scale of law enforcement and military personnel and increase the minimum wage.

Simply wow!

America is always told to mind her own business yet you all support other muslims from other countries that go and fight in other countries other than thier own so why the hypocrisy?

We don’t believe in countries.

All these countries were plotted by some bald, pot bellied English civil servants, allegedly for some “His” or “Her” majesty. Historically all this space was shared by many groups, tribes, peoples. They fight for the simple and basic principle of freedom.

 

Only some very raw chaps would fight for land or a piece of cloth with a motif on it.

Does that mean whenever any western country is attacked that Americans have a right and duty to go and help that nation no matter who it may be?

Are you running in soliloquy mode, a bit like Hamlet, asking yourself all the questions?

 

If you are asking me then we must realise that it's a historical fact:

the Americans have always found or invented reason for attacking any country of their choice whethre some western country was attacked or not.

Happy?
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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 12:14pm
Won't touch a word in Angela's post, not even attempt to thank her!
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