Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Science & Technology
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology
Message Icon Topic: Concept of Creation VS Chance Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2005 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by nadir

Assalaamu alaikum

O’ Angel…… what a beautiful person you are.

My previous ‘tantrum’ was (believe it or not) because I love you (& I so want you to believe in Allah, Glorified be the Most High).

 

Many of your comments were justified, & I would like use the attention (I drew toward you), to say to those I complained to, look at this fine example of a genuine & honest woman, if I ever saw a person who deserves to be Blessed, she is that person. Angel, may Allah (SWT) guide you, & shower you with Blessings of the greatest beauty (Insha Allah).

 

I guess, ummmm.....Thank you

Yes I am very frustrated with these so-called experts, as they have not allowed me (through their lack of support) the real opportunity, to help people. I wished to illustrate to you how confident I am (in Allah’s existence), & to point out that ‘they’ are unable to ‘touch me’, whether it be via knowledge, or physical might.

 

I'm not sure why you need those people (the experts you have called) to help people ?

And why should it be a battle because you believe in God (Allah) and they may not, which they may do believe in God but its not your conclusion or from you conclusion/result.

I am hopeful you will understand that the people you mentioned (ie Newton etc.), brought something that was purely scientific, what I have discovered is science with the moral purpose (ie One Ilah – Allah). I also hope you will realise that it is the people who doubt that God exists (& doubt the Day of Judgement) that require a proof….. I have simply stated that if you doubt, I can show you proof!

 

Why does science have to have a moral purpose ?

Why does science have to have a God (in it) ?

I do realise that people who doubt that God exist require proof but I believe that those who do believe need proof - why else are they believing in the existence of God ?  

 

You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then ?

 

I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong) 

I fear (doing wrong by) Allah (SWT), fear that is magnified due to the evidence He has allowed me to discover. I fear that if I showed this to someone who did not believe beforehand, & continued not to believe afterwards, a severe punishment would descend upon them.

 

I don't know, maybe that's the price you need to pay.

But you are holding back because of your own fear, whether right or wrong, its up to the individual to believe or not.  

Maybe the chief of IC will do nothing, but IC is now certainly aware that such information exists, I have a duty as a Muslim to share the knowledge bestowed upon me.

 

I'm still not sure what the Chief will do  

But anyway if you have a duty as a muslim to share the knowledge bestowed upon you then I think you need to overcome that fear of yours 

 

 

Nadir, I read your PM and I accept your apology, but I believe I didn't exactly asked for help  all I did was mentioned about the issues of 'claims' and that's when you jumped down my throat which as I said was unfair to do so address to me when its meant for others in that post to me.

The only advice I have is to distingush between those you speak of, address to, it will make life little easier  



Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2005 at 8:07pm

I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance

Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance ? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God



Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
nadir
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2005 at 8:10am

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Firstly may I apologise for my error of leaving out a couple of sentences from the ‘No chance, it’s the Almighty’ piece I posted above. I realised my mistake (in transferring/typing the piece over) this morning, I have corrected it now, & it is hence complete.

 

 

Angel, I fear you have missed the point…..

 

“Why does science have to have moral purpose?”

“Why does science have to have God (in it)?”

 

The aim of science is to try & perceive the secrets of existence. If the very purpose of existence is to Worship Allah (SWT), & to live in accordance with His Moral Law (Islam), then God & Morality play an essential role not only within science, but also in life as a whole.

 

“And I (Allah) created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)” [Surah 52, Verse 56]

 

 

“You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then?”

 

Initially I perceived the nirvana of morality, sound belief in a Creator of the Heavens & the Earth came later. Although admittedly I was unsure how to live my life in accordance with true morality (Islam), hence evidence of a supreme being served to strengthen my faith.

 

 

“I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong)”

  

If that is the case, aren’t they the foolish ones, seen as though they have not seen my evidence/results. If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?

 

 

“I don’t know, maybe that’s the price you need to pay. But you are holding back because of your own fear, whether right or wrong, it’s up to the individual to believe or not.”

 

True, but I really need to discuss (important) issues with people of wisdom, before I start spurting out knowledge that may help those, I do not wish to help.

 

 

I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance”

“Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God”

I am not sure what you mean by “I am with Deist..…” Does that mean you support Darwin’s theory of evolution? If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice…

 

If you were to believe Darwin’s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin’s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!

 

If I may share a hadith with you (may not be the best English – Arabic translation of the hadith, but the main point is still clear)…..

 

Sayyidina Huzayfah (RA) has said that the Messeger of Allah (SWT) said: “As for the things that Dajjal will have, I know them better than Dajjal. He will have two rivers, one of which will seem to the onlooker as a blazing fire and the other white water. Any of you who encounters it, should shut (his/her) eyes and drink water from the river which seems to be a fire, because (in fact) it is cool water, and he/she should keep himself away from the other river because it is torment…. “ 

 

 

With regards to your statement: “…that its not whether one believes in God or not, & to try and make one believe, but it’s what is out there, the evidence – proof or disproof.”

 

Again I stress the I have the scientific proof, although If I may also share with you a passage from the Holy Qur’an, with regards to - trying to make people believe…..

 

“And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.” [Surah 10, Verse 99]

 

 

Wasalaam

nadir

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2005 at 5:50am

Originally posted by nadir

The aim of science is to try & perceive the secrets of existence.

 

As much as I believe that - I believe it (science) is much more than that.

And I've come to know that its not the scientists job to prove or disprove God.

There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are scientists that don't.

 

I don't believe I missunderstood when I posed those 2 questions of mine. I don't believe science is there to prove morality or not, partly why I asked why does science have to have moral purpose ?

 

“Why does science have to have God (in it)?”

 

If the very purpose of existence is to Worship Allah (SWT), & to live in accordance with His Moral Law (Islam), then God & Morality play an essential role not only within science, but also in life as a whole.

 

But Nadir, you are coming from Islam! Not everyone believes the purpose of existence is to worship Allah/God. And not everyone believes in Islam whether they are scientists or not. (Not that should shut the door on some knowledge islam may offer).

 

“You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then?”

Initially I perceived the nirvana of morality, sound belief in a Creator of the Heavens & the Earth came later. Although admittedly I was unsure how to live my life in accordance with true morality (Islam), hence evidence of a supreme being served to strengthen my faith.

 

See I was right your evidence is Islam ;-)))

Many people don't need islam for proof of God.

And I certainly believe that islam does not equal morality, others have morality too. 

 

“I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong)”

If that is the case, aren’t they the foolish ones, seen as though they have not seen my evidence/results. If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?

 

{{You do realise this is all presumptions of us here ;-) so nothing is probably truth?}}

Why are they foolish because they have different result/evidence to believe in God from you ?

"If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?"

No of course not, as I said earlier its not their job. Believing in God is somewhat a personally issue. I believe in God and have a few things that go with it but it does not make me know the unseen.

Do you profess to know the unseen ?

 

I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance”

“Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God”

I am not sure what you mean by “I am with Deist..…” Does that mean you support Darwin’s theory of evolution?

 

Where did Darwin come into this

What I mean is that I agree with Deist when he mentioned its not whether one believes or not in God - even though he spoke about himself. I'm not sure what Darwin has to do with it?

 

With regards to your statement: “…that its not whether one believes in God or not, & to try and make one believe, but it’s what is out there, the evidence – proof or disproof.”

Again I stress the I have the scientific proof, although If I may also share with you a passage from the Holy Qur’an, with regards to - trying to make people believe…..

 

ok, you have proof, all those that believe in God have some kind of proof, scientific or other ;-)

 

And those that do not believe in God have some kind of proof also ;-)

 

“And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.” [Surah 10, Verse 99] 

 

I don't believe in it.

But anyway isn't there a verse that mentions Allah guides whom he wills, so really even if you share your knowledge, isn't it up to Allah?

 

I still stand by my statement thou. 

 

Again repeat :

And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance”

Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2005 at 5:53am

 

Originally posted by nadir

If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice…

If you were to believe Darwin’s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin’s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!

 

This perhaps requires a new thread.

 

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
nadir
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2005 at 9:38am

 

Greetings Angel

 

Angel stated: “I don't believe in it.

But anyway isn't there a verse that mentions Allah guides whom he wills, so really even if you share your knowledge, isn't it up to Allah?”

 

 

“Verily, you (O Muhammad [SAW]) guide not whom you like, but Allah (SWT) guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.” [Holy Qur’an: Surah 28; Verse 56]

 

“And We have sent to you (O Muhammad [SAW]) Ruh (a revelation, and a mercy) of Our Command. You knew not what is the Book, nor what is Faith. But We have made it (this Qur’an) a light wherewith We guide whosoever of Our slaves We will. And verily, you (O Muhammad [SAW]) are indeed guiding to the Straight Path (ie Allah’s religion of Islamic Monotheism).”  [Holy Qur’an: Surah 42; Verse 52]

 

Angel stated: “See I was right your evidence is Islam ;-)))”

“Many people don't need islam for proof of God.”

“And I certainly believe that islam does not equal morality, others have morality too.”

 

I had stated: Initially I perceived the nirvana of morality, sound belief in a Creator of the Heavens & the Earth came later. Although admittedly I was unsure how to live my life in accordance with true morality (Islam), hence evidence of a supreme being served to strengthen my faith.”

 

Please do not make presumptions! My perception of the nirvana of morality, & the scientific evidence I discovered (of One Ilah – Allah), came to me before I embraced Islam, & before I knew of the (superior) morality of Islam.

 

 

With regards to the other issues you mention, I am afraid you have pushed me to the point where - I wish to part company (with you), as I feel I am no longer able to talk with you (I feel like I’m wasting my time), unless you say…..

 

La Illaha-Illallah

Muhammadur Rasullah

 

Kind regards

nadir

IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2005 at 10:04am

Originally posted by nadir

My perception of the nirvana of morality, & the scientific evidence I discovered (of One Ilah – Allah), came to me before I embraced Islam, & before I knew of the (superior) morality of Islam.

Ok

With regards to the other issues you mention, I am afraid you have pushed me to the point where - I wish to part company (with you), as I feel I am no longer able to talk with you (I feel like I’m wasting my time), unless you say…..

 

If you want to leave, I can't stop you but No, you're not wasting your time.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
nadir
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 120
Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2005 at 12:37pm

 

Greetings Angel,

 

 

I just wanted to say that I hold nothing against you…

 

It seems I am the wrong person to be answering your (previous) questions (in this thread), if you still require an answer(s), I suggest you seek the advice of someone whom God has favoured…..

 

 

 
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com